Washington St. fired due to refusing to get

[Big Blue]

Oh yeah, one more thing. If the leading authorities primary and only concern was getting as many as possible vaccinated so that we might reach herd immunity, please help me understand why they wouldn't simply develop a third vaccine option based off of the classic, tried and true technology used to produce the Polio, Measles, Smallpox vaccines???

They should have anticipated that the late adopters, (i.e. those who never guinea-pig new drugs or technology until it's been debugged), would have reservations. However, almost all of that crowd has taken every other vaccine, so if you develop a COVID vaxx based on that technology, they'd take it in a heartbeat and we'd likely be well into the 90%+. It's such an obvious and easy fix, that them not doing it likely speaks volumes about their true agenda.

FWIW, COVID vaccines that use the "traditional" LAV/IAV technologies have been in development. My understanding is that they have been slower in development and have been less effective in trials than the Pfizer/Moderna/J&J type vaccines. I think a couple of examples of these would be COVI-VAC and Sinovac. The former is supposedly effective, but is still in trials and the latter is much less effective and (I think) developed by China.

Even though I think there are and almost certainly will be no issues with the vaccines that have been distributed in the U.S., it is a good idea if they can get one of these type vaccines to market and approved by the FDA. For people who are hesitant, even if the hesitancy is unwarranted, it just makes sense to make available something they can feel comfortable with that gets them vaxxed. I also think it would have been better if the authorities had given better public explanations for why the vaccines that are readily available were better choices and why the others were not yet available. Anything that would have given the public good reason to trust authorities who have instead (IMO) shown that they are not trustworthy would have been a good thing.

All that said, I don't see anybody taking the mRNA (or J&J) vaccines as in any way guinea pigging anything. @Stumpfan has been correct in his repeated assertions that these vaccines are miracles. They are amazingly effective and safe and there is little reason to believe that there will be any long term issues with them.

 

[DM8]

Sorry, but you don't understand what you're reading. As I pointed out in the other post, there is a huge difference between something being "MORE traditional", and actually being a traditional vaccine. They are using subtle differences and playing with words to trick folks. This is actually a case in point, and it tricked you.

The technology used in the J&J is relatively new. It's older than mRNA, but it's still new and has never been used enmasse prior to COVID. The good thing is that we're getting a lot of data on these technologies that we otherwise wouldn't have.

So, I was NOT proven wrong, but unfortunately, you happen to be wrong yet again. You just didn't understand what you were reading.

You are regurgitating trash you read on facebook. I cited an explanation from a doctor who is a leading expert on vaccines and infectious diseases. I am sorry you can't comprehend how badly you are embarrassing yourself whining about the "new technology" used in vaccines which have saved millions of lives this year. If vaccines using different technology had worked, they would have also been approved already. The conspiracy you have claimed to suppress or ignore "traditional" vaccines is a figment of your imagination.

The vaccines that have been approved are a medical miracle and all of us should be incredibly thankful for the work done to develop them last year and all of the work that took place over previous decades to set the state for their quick development. It's pathetic that people like you instead choose to engage in an anti-vax crusade in hopes of convincing gullible people not to get vaccinated.

 

[Big Blue]

I am going to go with the explanation provided by the leading infectious disease doctor I cited. This explanation is extremely easy for anyone to follow.

What is the difference between how the Johnson & Johnson vaccine works and how the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines work?​

The ultimate difference is the way the instructions are delivered. The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines use mRNA technology, and the Johnson & Johnson vaccine uses the more traditional virus-based technology.

Instead of using mRNA, the Johnson & Johnson vaccine uses a disabled adenovirus to deliver the instructions. This adenovirus is in no way related to the coronavirus. It is a completely different virus. Although it can deliver the instructions on how to defeat the coronavirus, it can’t replicate in your body and will not give you a viral infection.

All of this hand wringing over "new technology" by the anti-vaxxers is just a nonsensical excuse anyway. If the COVID vaccines were literally identical to the polio vaccine, they'd come up with some other nutty complaint to justify their backward views.

It isn't the disabled adenovirus part that is "new." It is using that virus to deliver DNA instructions to code for the spike protein that is new. One only has to understand that these type vaccines were never approved prior to 2019 to know that there is a basic difference.

That said, I agree that there is no reason for the "hand wringing" and have busted @au4life_rz's chops over that previously. But anything that might get more people to accept the vaccines does nothing but help all of us.

 

[stutsman23]

FWIW, COVID vaccines that use the "traditional" LAV/IAV technologies have been in development. My understanding is that they have been slower in development and have been less effective in trials than the Pfizer/Moderna/J&J type vaccines. I think a couple of examples of these would be COVI-VAC and Sinovac. The former is supposedly effective, but is still in trials and the latter is much less effective and (I think) developed by China.

Even though I think there are and almost certainly will be no issues with the vaccines that have been distributed in the U.S., it is a good idea if they can get one of these type vaccines to market and approved by the FDA. For people who are hesitant, even if the hesitancy is unwarranted, it just makes sense to make available something they can feel comfortable with that gets them vaxxed. I also think it would have been better if the authorities had given better public explanations for why the vaccines that are readily available were better choices and why the others were not yet available. Anything that would have given the public good reason to trust authorities who have instead (IMO) shown that they are not trustworthy would have been a good thing.

All that said, I don't see anybody taking the mRNA (or J&J) vaccines as in any way guinea pigging anything. @Stumpfan has been correct in his repeated assertions that these vaccines are miracles. They are amazingly effective and safe and there is little reason to believe that there will be any long term issues with them.

It isn't the disabled adenovirus part that is "new." It is using that virus to deliver DNA instructions to code for the spike protein that is new. One only has to understand that these type vaccines were never approved prior to 2019 to know that there is a basic difference.

That said, I agree that there is no reason for the "hand wringing" and have busted @au4life_rz's chops over that previously. But anything that might get more people to accept the vaccines does nothing but help all of us.

 

[au4life_rz]

I am going to go with the explanation provided by the leading infectious disease doctor I cited. This explanation is extremely easy for anyone to follow.

What is the difference between how the Johnson & Johnson vaccine works and how the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines work?​

The ultimate difference is the way the instructions are delivered. The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines use mRNA technology, and the Johnson & Johnson vaccine uses the more traditional virus-based technology.

Instead of using mRNA, the Johnson & Johnson vaccine uses a disabled adenovirus to deliver the instructions. This adenovirus is in no way related to the coronavirus. It is a completely different virus. Although it can deliver the instructions on how to defeat the coronavirus, it can’t replicate in your body and will not give you a viral infection.

All of this hand wringing over "new technology" by the anti-vaxxers is just a nonsensical excuse anyway. If the COVID vaccines were literally identical to the polio vaccine, they'd come up with some other nutty complaint to justify their backward views.

See, this is where it gets twisted. It isn't the explanation that's the problem. It's your understanding of it. If you keep studying, you'll eventually discover that you're simply wrong. But it's frustrating when I try to engage you guys like adults, and all you do is operate in full delusion and stick to your incorrect points while calling names, deflecting and throwing feces like a lower form of primate. You do this constantly, even after you have been presented with irrefutable proof. We're not on PoReMu and that partisan crap doesn't work here. You're going to have to make an actual point if you want to advance your point and argument.

Most of these folks still holding out are NOT anti-vaxxers. You're so caught up in the facebook talking points, trying to be a good Vaxx-drone soldier following the narrative, that you are missing it. Most of them have already taken ALL of the traditional vaccines. I TRULY, truly believe that they would have NO hesitation at all taking a vaccine based on LAV or inactivated technology because it's not new, is SUPER well known, and therefore carries significantly less risk. Why is that hard to understand? Any remotely intelligent and decent politician, administrator or leading authority should have been able to anticipate this and have one ready....IF their primary goal and agenda were getting us through the pandemic as safely and quickly as possible. It was definitely a key miss.

Sadly, you are missing the forest for the trees, because you've convinced yourself that it's just a "nutty complaint" and that it's only kooks out there with backward views. It certainly appears that you have FULLY drank the Kool-Aid and are so sold out, there's no coming back to reality. It's sad man.

 

[DM8]

See, this is where it gets twisted. It isn't the explanation that's the problem. It's your understanding of it. If you keep studying, you'll eventually discover that you're simply wrong. But it's frustrating when I try to engage you guys like adults, and all you do is operate in full delusion and stick to your incorrect points while calling names, deflecting and throwing feces like a lower form of primate. You do this constantly, even after you have been presented with irrefutable proof. We're not on PoReMu and that partisan crap doesn't work here. You're going to have to make an actual point if you want to advance your point and argument.

Most of these folks still holding out are NOT anti-vaxxers. You're so caught up in the facebook talking points, trying to be a good Vaxx-drone soldier following the narrative, that you are missing it. Most of them have already taken ALL of the traditional vaccines. I TRULY, truly believe that they would have NO hesitation at all taking a vaccine based on LAV or inactivated technology because it's not new, is SUPER well known, and therefore carries significantly less risk. Why is that hard to understand? Any remotely intelligent and decent politician, administrator or leading authority should have been able to anticipate this and have one ready....IF their primary goal and agenda were getting us through the pandemic as safely and quickly as possible. It was definitely a key miss.

Sadly, you are missing the forest for the trees, because you've convinced yourself that it's just a "nutty complaint" and that it's only kooks out there with backward views. It certainly appears that you have FULLY drank the Kool-Aid and are so sold out, there's no coming back to reality. It's sad man.

You lost this argument so now back to our regularly scheduled programing of mocking you and the ret of your anti-vax cult.

 

[au4life_rz]

FWIW, COVID vaccines that use the "traditional" LAV/IAV technologies have been in development. My understanding is that they have been slower in development and have been less effective in trials than the Pfizer/Moderna/J&J type vaccines. I think a couple of examples of these would be COVI-VAC and Sinovac. The former is supposedly effective, but is still in trials and the latter is much less effective and (I think) developed by China.

Even though I think there are and almost certainly will be no issues with the vaccines that have been distributed in the U.S., it is a good idea if they can get one of these type vaccines to market and approved by the FDA. For people who are hesitant, even if the hesitancy is unwarranted, it just makes sense to make available something they can feel comfortable with that gets them vaxxed. I also think it would have been better if the authorities had given better public explanations for why the vaccines that are readily available were better choices and why the others were not yet available. Anything that would have given the public good reason to trust authorities who have instead (IMO) shown that they are not trustworthy would have been a good thing.

All that said, I don't see anybody taking the mRNA (or J&J) vaccines as in any way guinea pigging anything. @Stumpfan has been correct in his repeated assertions that these vaccines are miracles. They are amazingly effective and safe and there is little reason to believe that there will be any long term issues with them.

First, I've only used the term "guinea-pigging" in context to describe early adopters who typically jump out and don't mind taking new drugs as soon as they hit the market. Others along the spectrum will wait until more data is available, and take an existing, well known drug, UNLESS, there are dire circumstances that justify the risk.

We've discussed this topic on classical vaccines months ago. I follow it intently, with a lot of hope anytime someone such as COVI-VAC makes an announcement. Unfortunately, several of those have dried/died on the vine, (and/or were killed). China decided they would not go with any mRNA vaccines, and they had multiple classical vaccines ready to go back in December of 2020 based on inactivated technology. IMHO, there is NO EXCUSE for the richest, and most technologically advanced country in the world to not have one ready too. If China could have multiple vaccines ready to go by December, it's hard for me to believe that we couldn't have had at least one ready too.

If I can sit up here and think about this occasionally and recognize the significant need for a classical vaccine to address this huge segment of late adopters, then surely our best and brightest doctors, scientists and administrators can do the same given that it's their full time jobs. I'll be thrilled if we would get one out so that we can hopefully make a huge leap forward with last remaining block of hold-outs/late adopters.

 

[DM8]

First, I've only used the term "guinea-pigging" in context to describe early adopters who typically jump out and don't mind taking new drugs as soon as they hit the market. Others along the spectrum will wait until more data is available, and take an existing, well known drug, UNLESS, there are dire circumstances that justify the risk.

We've discussed this topic on classical vaccines months ago. I follow it intently, with a lot of hope anytime someone such as COVI-VAC makes an announcement. Unfortunately, several of those have dried/died on the vine, (and/or were killed). China decided they would not go with any mRNA vaccines, and they had multiple classical vaccines ready to go back in December of 2020 based on inactivated technology. IMHO, there is NO EXCUSE for the richest, and most technologically advanced country in the world to not have one ready too. If China could have multiple vaccines ready to go by December, it's hard for me to believe that we couldn't have had at least one ready too.

If I can sit up here and think about this occasionally and recognize the significant need for a classical vaccine to address this huge segment of late adopters, then surely our best and brightest doctors, scientists and administrators can do the same given that it's their full time jobs. I'll be thrilled if we would get one out so that we can hopefully make a huge leap forward with last remaining block of hold-outs/late adopters.

 

[au4life_rz]

You lost this argument so now back to our regularly scheduled programing of mocking you and the ret of your anti-vax cult.

Please...., please stop deflecting, name-calling and engage in mature, intelligent discourse. If there is a flaw in one of my arguments, then by all means please expose it, but likewise, when someone CLEARLY shows you that you were wrong. Please consider coming back and acting like a stand up guy and just admitting that you were wrong instead of posting more deceptive memes intended to cast your opponent as a "crazy anti-vaxxer". That is NOT a display of honesty, (intellectual, or otherwise).

 

[DM8]

Please...., please stop deflecting, name-calling and engage in mature, intelligent discourse. If there is a flaw in one of my arguments, then by all means please expose it, but likewise, when someone CLEARLY shows you that you were wrong. Please consider coming back and acting like a stand up guy and just admitting that you were wrong instead of posting more deceptive memes intended to cast your opponent as a "crazy anti-vaxxer". That is NOT a display of honesty, (intellectual, or otherwise).

 

[au4life_rz]

It isn't the disabled adenovirus part that is "new." It is using that virus to deliver DNA instructions to code for the spike protein that is new. One only has to understand that these type vaccines were never approved prior to 2019 to know that there is a basic difference.

That said, I agree that there is no reason for the "hand wringing" and have busted @au4life_rz's chops over that previously. But anything that might get more people to accept the vaccines does nothing but help all of us.

And just to be clear, the adenovirus isn't disabled at all. It's fully alive, but it has had some of it's DNA replaced, so that instead of delivering instructions to our cells to make copies of itself, instead, it instructs them to make copies of the spike protein.

I also disagree with the characterization that I'm "wringing" my hands, or that you've successfully debunked my two cents that we should change and use an approach based on openness, honesty and full disclosure so that folks can make informed decisions.

 

[CPATiger]

Please...., please stop deflecting, name-calling and engage in mature, intelligent discourse. If there is a flaw in one of my arguments, then by all means please expose it, but likewise, when someone CLEARLY shows you that you were wrong. Please consider coming back and acting like a stand up guy and just admitting that you were wrong instead of posting more deceptive memes intended to cast your opponent as a "crazy anti-vaxxer". That is NOT a display of honesty, (intellectual, or otherwise).

Poor delusional DM8, gets thoroughly abused in a thread and walks away thinking he accomplished something. lol

 

[au4life_rz]

You are regurgitating trash you read on facebook. I cited an explanation from a doctor who is a leading expert on vaccines and infectious diseases. I am sorry you can't comprehend how badly you are embarrassing yourself whining about the "new technology" used in vaccines which have saved millions of lives this year. If vaccines using different technology had worked, they would have also been approved already. The conspiracy you have claimed to suppress or ignore "traditional" vaccines is a figment of your imagination.

The vaccines that have been approved are a medical miracle and all of us should be incredibly thankful for the work done to develop them last year and all of the work that took place over previous decades to set the state for their quick development. It's pathetic that people like you instead choose to engage in an anti-vax crusade in hopes of convincing gullible people not to get vaccinated.

I'm not whining at all, and you were just dead wrong. I'll tell you what. Let's make a ONE YEAR BAN BET based on whether the J&J vaccine is based on classical, tried and true vaccine technology that is LAV or inactivated/killed. Put your money where your mouth is. One year, no posting, no starting a new account.

Had we done what I've been railing about since last January or so, we might already have 95%+ fully vaccinated in this country. I feel that's an erstwhile goal, but of course, maybe you disagree and feel if it isn't one of the new/novel technologies, it doesn't count. Lastly, you well know I'm not an anti-vaxxer, but you're pissed because I've provided missing/suppressed information that the narrative was trying to hide, (so that people could make FAIR and INFORMED decisions). That is a GOOD thing.

 

[CorinthTiger]

Since this thread started on Monday I think some of you should quit posting and head to Walgreens cause your boosters are due.

 

[Big Blue]

First, I've only used the term "guinea-pigging" in context to describe early adopters who typically jump out and don't mind taking new drugs as soon as they hit the market. Others along the spectrum will wait until more data is available, and take an existing, well known drug, UNLESS, there are dire circumstances that justify the risk.

We've discussed this topic on classical vaccines months ago. I follow it intently, with a lot of hope anytime someone such as COVI-VAC makes an announcement. Unfortunately, several of those have dried/died on the vine, (and/or were killed). China decided they would not go with any mRNA vaccines, and they had multiple classical vaccines ready to go back in December of 2020 based on inactivated technology. IMHO, there is NO EXCUSE for the richest, and most technologically advanced country in the world to not have one ready too. If China could have multiple vaccines ready to go by December, it's hard for me to believe that we couldn't have had at least one ready too.

If I can sit up here and think about this occasionally and recognize the significant need for a classical vaccine to address this huge segment of late adopters, then surely our best and brightest doctors, scientists and administrators can do the same given that it's their full time jobs. I'll be thrilled if we would get one out so that we can hopefully make a huge leap forward with last remaining block of hold-outs/late adopters.

In mentioning that "classical" vaccines were "ready" in December of 2020, you may not be aware that mRNA vaccines were "ready" in February of 2020, a full nine months sooner. Moderna had the first mRNA shots in arms of volunteers in mid-March of 2020. The mRNA vaccines were much more quickly developed than the traditional ones. That is one of the "features" of the technology. I think we should have LAV/IAV vaccines out for the public by now, but in light of the ready availability of the other, more effective ones, some a lack of urgency may be understandable. Maybe that was short-sighted in light of vaccine hesitancy and poor (IMO) communications with the public, but it is somewhat understandable. We are dealing with government here and wise decision-making is not the norm.

 

[BobbyBudnick]

 

[Stumpfan]

FWIW, COVID vaccines that use the "traditional" LAV/IAV technologies have been in development. My understanding is that they have been slower in development and have been less effective in trials than the Pfizer/Moderna/J&J type vaccines. I think a couple of examples of these would be COVI-VAC and Sinovac. The former is supposedly effective, but is still in trials and the latter is much less effective and (I think) developed by China.

Even though I think there are and almost certainly will be no issues with the vaccines that have been distributed in the U.S., it is a good idea if they can get one of these type vaccines to market and approved by the FDA. For people who are hesitant, even if the hesitancy is unwarranted, it just makes sense to make available something they can feel comfortable with that gets them vaxxed. I also think it would have been better if the authorities had given better public explanations for why the vaccines that are readily available were better choices and why the others were not yet available. Anything that would have given the public good reason to trust authorities who have instead (IMO) shown that they are not trustworthy would have been a good thing.

All that said, I don't see anybody taking the mRNA (or J&J) vaccines as in any way guinea pigging anything. @Stumpfan has been correct in his repeated assertions that these vaccines are miracles. They are amazingly effective and safe and there is little reason to believe that there will be any long term issues with them.

He really thinks that we would have some big jump in vaccine sign-ups if they offered a traditional vaccine. This entire time he has been under the impression that the hesitancy was due to “mRNA” even though JJ isn’t. And no, people don’t know JJ vaccine type has only been around a few years. The bottom line is the vaccines were made political. A traditional vaccine wasn’t going to make a difference.

 

[Stumpfan]

Poor delusional DM8, gets thoroughly abused in a thread and walks away thinking he accomplished something. lol

You ran from this thread like a bitch and still can’t say why you oppose the vaccines when asked what your objection was.

 

[Big Blue]

And just to be clear, the adenovirus isn't disabled at all. It's fully alive, but it has had some of it's DNA replaced, so that instead of delivering instructions to our cells to make copies of itself, instead, it instructs them to make copies of the spike protein.

I also disagree with the characterization that I'm "wringing" my hands, or that you've successfully debunked my two cents that we should change and use an approach based on openness, honesty and full disclosure so that folks can make informed decisions.

You're preaching to the choir here. I fully understand how the J&J vaccine works. Technically, rather than "disabled," maybe "attenuated" would be a better term, although there are plenty of articles describing the J&J vaccine that use the term disabled to describe it. The virus has had its ability to make the host sick, replicate, and integrate itself into the DNA of the host cell removed and has had instructions for coding the spike protein of the SARS-COV-2 virus added.

As for the rest, your two cents are worth much less than that. Nobody here or anywhere disagrees that we should "use an approach based on openness, honesty and full disclosure so that folks can make informed decisions." They just disagree with you on how and to what extent any of that didn't happen. But I wasn't addressing any of that, just rather correcting DM8's obvious misunderstanding about the J&J vaccine.

 

[au4life_rz]

In mentioning that "classical" vaccines were "ready" in December of 2020, you may not be aware that mRNA vaccines were "ready" in February of 2020, a full nine months sooner. Moderna had the first mRNA shots in arms of volunteers in mid-March of 2020. The mRNA vaccines were much more quickly developed than the traditional ones. That is one of the "features" of the technology. I think we should have LAV/IAV vaccines out for the public by now, but in light of the ready availability of the other, more effective ones, some a lack of urgency may be understandable. Maybe that was short-sighted in light of vaccine hesitancy and poor (IMO) communications with the public, but it is somewhat understandable. We are dealing with government here and wise decision-making is not the norm.

I'm talking about the finished product that China released, and you just compared that ready-for-use product, with one that I believe was used in Moderna's trials. I believe China had their their inactivated vaccines ready for trials during roughly the same timeframe, so if that is indeed true, it's not a situation where the mRNA was available 9 months earlier. Just recalling from memory, I believe they were moving at roughly the same/similar timeframes despite us having more resources, technology and potentially starting earlier.

I'm well aware of the speed to market platform advantage of mRNA, but that has no bearing in the use-case that I've been harping on, which is all about getting people a proven option that we KNOW is completely safe. I thought you'd know that my goal was not to juxtapose the two technologies and compare them to determine which one was "best", faster etc.. It's about coming up with a creative solution to a really tough problem, (which is how do we get more folks vaccinated).

While I agree that we should have had a vaccine based on classical technology out for public use a LONG time ago, I'm not just looking at this thing just a foot or two off of the ground, (i.e. somewhat myopically). I'm trying to look at the bigger picture scenario, and if we really do get a substantial bump in our vaccination rates because the late adopters are comfortable taking a classical vaccine, then it's a net gain, even if one of the new technologies were "faster or cheaper" etc. It's WELL WORTH it to get our economy back on track and most importantly, to SAVE MORE LIVES.

 

[Big Blue]

He really thinks that we would have some big jump in vaccine sign-ups if they offered a traditional vaccine. This entire time he has been under the impression that the hesitancy was due to “mRNA” even though JJ isn’t. And no, people don’t know JJ vaccine type has only been around a few years. The bottom line is the vaccines were made political. A traditional vaccine wasn’t going to make a difference.

I know two people right now who are trying to decide whether to quit their jobs over their companies having issued a mandate to vaccinate. I am not sure having a "traditional" COVID vaccine available would make either one of them decide to take it. At this point, they both feel like they have been deceived by the government about the virus and the pandemic (which is somewhat true) and just don't want to be told what to do by the government. They both feel like they could take this vaccine, but are concerned about what other kinds of mandate might be coming down the road in the future. Whether one agrees with them or not, I'm not sure having a better vaccine option would make a difference. But maybe it would. And maybe there are a lot of other people who have not vaccinated for different reasons who would take a traditional vaccine. It wouldn't hurt anything to make one available if that is an option. There is no doubt that the vaccines have been made political, and that isn't the fault of only one side or the other, but maybe having another option would have helped depoliticize it a bit. But maybe not. This pandemic hit at a really bad time for our country. Or maybe a very opportune time for some, if one tends to think along those lines.

 

[au4life_rz]

He really thinks that we would have some big jump in vaccine sign-ups if they offered a traditional vaccine. This entire time he has been under the impression that the hesitancy was due to “mRNA” even though JJ isn’t. And no, people don’t know JJ vaccine type has only been around a few years. The bottom line is the vaccines were made political. A traditional vaccine wasn’t going to make a difference.

I can only hope Stomp, and as always, I'm only trying to stimulate good discussion and kick around some creative, out of the box solutions. I do think that has potential to give us a bump in our vaccination rates.

Folks know that the mRNA and viral vector with modified DNA, are close to some "scary areas" for the general public as a whole. It should be EXPECTED that folks would have pause, and to plan and account for that hesitancy. NOT by using marketing tricks, deceit, suppression of information and manipulative bullying etc., but by coming up with plausible ideas that help folks who are struggling.

It's been said that the largest group of hold-outs/hesitancy is PhD's. I don't know if that study is solid, but I DO believe that most of the hold-outs aren't anti-vaxxers and they're folks who have taken all of the classical vaccines. If they've already taken Polio, Measles, Chicken Pox etc., then there shouldn't be reservation to taking a COVID vaccine based off of this technology. IMHO, ideas like that are infinitely better than mandating that someone takes something new, or relatively new, into their bodies when we don't have usage data across the full-lifecycle.

 

[CPATiger]

You ran from this thread like a bitch and still can’t say why you oppose the vaccines when asked what your objection was.

Wut? You really need to work on reading comprehension. Your skills are sorely lacking.
Link to where I said I oppose vaccines? I've said all along it's a personal choice. I'm anti-mandate.
Running away? You mean spending my time doing something more productive than arguing with progressive drones. Ok
You were telling people to take the JnJ vax. I said some people oppose it based on religious reasons. Everything I said was proven true, you poisonous moron.

 

[au4life_rz]

You're preaching to the choir here. I fully understand how the J&J vaccine works. Technically, rather than "disabled," maybe "attenuated" would be a better term, although there are plenty of articles describing the J&J vaccine that use the term disabled to describe it. The virus has had its ability to make the host sick, replicate, and integrate itself into the DNA of the host cell removed and has had instructions for coding the spike protein of the SARS-COV-2 virus added.

As for the rest, your two cents are worth much less than that. Nobody here or anywhere disagrees that we should "use an approach based on openness, honesty and full disclosure so that folks can make informed decisions." They just disagree with you on how and to what extent any of that didn't happen. But I wasn't addressing any of that, just rather correcting DM8's obvious misunderstanding about the J&J vaccine.

Good post, but the bolded sentence isn't correct. Much of my debate here and other boards are with those who adhere ardently to the established narrative. They believe it's okay to suppress information that goes against the narrative, while using strong propaganda, deceit, and even outright lying as long as it's a "noble lie" that's done for a "good cause".

 

[Stumpfan]

I know two people right now who are trying to decide whether to quit their jobs over their companies having issued a mandate to vaccinate. I am not sure having a "traditional" COVID vaccine available would make either one of them decide to take it. At this point, they both feel like they have been deceived by the government about the virus and the pandemic (which is somewhat true) and just don't want to be told what to do by the government. They both feel like they could take this vaccine, but are concerned about what other kinds of mandate might be coming down the road in the future. Whether one agrees with them or not, I'm not sure having a better vaccine option would make a difference. But maybe it would. And maybe there are a lot of other people who have not vaccinated for different reasons who would take a traditional vaccine. It wouldn't hurt anything to make one available if that is an option. There is no doubt that the vaccines have been made political, and that isn't the fault of only one side or the other, but maybe having another option would have helped depoliticize it a bit. But maybe not. This pandemic hit at a really bad time for our country. Or maybe a very opportune time for some, if one tends to think along those lines.

The Gvt? Isn’t it their companies requiring it? The Gvt mandate for those companies over 100 employees hasn’t been implemented. I think the entire vaccine hesitancy part of this pandemic is nuts. Also, the lying by the Gvt stuff is way overblown.

 

[au4life_rz]

The sky is blue. The earth is round, and gravity causes objects to fall at 9.86 meters per second squared.

 

[Stumpfan]

I can only hope Stomp, and as always, I'm only trying to stimulate good discussion and kick around some creative, out of the box solutions. I do think that has potential to give us a bump in our vaccination rates.

Folks know that the mRNA and viral vector with modified DNA, are close to some "scary areas" for the general public as a whole. It should be EXPECTED that folks would have pause, and to plan and account for that hesitancy. NOT by using marketing tricks, deceit, suppression of information and manipulative bullying etc., but by coming up with plausible ideas that help folks who are struggling.

It's been said that the largest group of hold-outs/hesitancy is PhD's. I don't know if that study is solid, but I DO believe that most of the hold-outs aren't anti-vaxxers and they're folks who have taken all of the classical vaccines. If they've already taken Polio, Measles, Chicken Pox etc., then there shouldn't be reservation to taking a COVID vaccine based off of this technology. IMHO, ideas like that are infinitely better than mandating that someone takes something new, or relatively new, into their bodies when we don't have usage data across the full-lifecycle.

Nope. Most of the public see JJ as traditional and it didn’t matter. It wouldn’t have made a difference. I’m old enough to remember when fda approval was going to make a difference. It made no difference on hesitancy. None.

 

[Big Blue]

I'm talking about the finished product that China released, and you just compared that ready-for-use product, with one that I believe was used in Moderna's trials. I believe China had their their inactivated vaccines ready for trials during roughly the same timeframe, so if that is indeed true, it's not a situation where the mRNA was available 9 months earlier. Just recalling from memory, I believe they were moving at roughly the same/similar timeframes despite us having more resources, technology and potentially starting earlier.

I'm well aware of the speed to market platform advantage of mRNA, but that has no bearing in the use-case that I've been harping on, which is all about getting people a proven option that we KNOW is completely safe. I thought you'd know that my goal was not to juxtapose the two technologies and compare them to determine which one was "best", faster etc.. It's about coming up with a creative solution to a really tough problem, (which is how do we get more folks vaccinated).

While I agree that we should have had a vaccine based on classical technology out for public use a LONG time ago, I'm not just looking at this thing just a foot or two off of the ground, (i.e. somewhat myopically). I'm trying to look at the bigger picture scenario, and if we really do get a substantial bump in our vaccination rates because the late adopters are comfortable taking a classical vaccine, then it's a net gain, even if one of the new technologies were "faster or cheaper" etc. It's WELL WORTH it to get our economy back on track and most importantly, to SAVE MORE LIVES.

If you are talking about the Sinovac vaccine, I believe it was only about 50% effective. If that isn't what you are talking about, a cite would be useful. Regardless, I think you are completely wrong that it is about getting people a proven option that we KNOW is completely safe. The bottom line was getting effective vaccines in place as fast as possible to try and stop people from dying. That was what it was about and the mRNA (and J&J) vaccines were faster for that. Yes, we should have had "traditional" versions too, but they have been working on those too. They just haven't progressed as quickly. Maybe part of that was due to less need for them because other better options were available in the vaccines that are in use now. I don't necessarily disagree with you that maybe they should have hustled those to market as fast as possible as well, but it isn't certain that would have made a significant difference in vaccine hesitancy. Other factors are involved. But, yeah, it probably was worth pushing for it.

 

[SigBitty]

Wut? You really need to work on reading comprehension. Your skills are sorely lacking.
Link to where I said I oppose vaccines? I've said all along it's a personal choice. I'm anti-mandate.
Running away? You mean spending my time doing something more productive than arguing with progressive drones. Ok
You were telling people to take the JnJ vax. I said some people oppose it based on religious reasons. Everything I said was proven true, you poisonous moron.

 

[Stumpfan]

Wut? You really need to work on reading comprehension. Your skills are sorely lacking.
Link to where I said I oppose vaccines? I've said all along it's a personal choice. I'm anti-mandate.
Running away? You mean spending my time doing something more productive than arguing with progressive drones. Ok
You were telling people to take the JnJ vax. I said some people oppose it based on religious reasons. Everything I said was proven true, you poisonous moron.

When the Vatican says you can take it, the religious bs doesn’t hold up. On JJ, I said I’d somebody is that concerned with myocarditis then they should go with JJ. You tried to carve out some bs group that is afraid of myocarditis and has religious problems with the vaccine. Also, the myocarditis for mRNA has shown to be virtually nothing.

 

[CPATiger]

Lil Bit, I'd stick with these gifs if I was you. Much better than being proven wrong over and over when you open your mouth.

 

[Big Blue]

The Gvt? Isn’t it their companies requiring it? The Gvt mandate for those companies over 100 employees hasn’t been implemented. I think the entire vaccine hesitancy part of this pandemic is nuts. Also, the lying by the Gvt stuff is way overblown.

Both of these guys work for companies with government contracts and their company mandates are due to the government requirements for contractors and subcontractors. At least one of those companies hasn't even mandated the vaccine for the entire corporation but only for the subsidiaries/locations that perform work for the government. Their mandates to the employees specifically cited the government requirements. The government is absolutely the driver for these two cases. As for whether the lying by the government is overblown, that depends on folks' individual perspectives. I tend to lean toward never attributing to malice that which can more easily be explained by incompetence, especially when it comes to government but I can sympathize with folks who see malice. It isn't like the government doesn't have a long history of lying to the people.

 

[stutsman23]

I know two people right now who are trying to decide whether to quit their jobs over their companies having issued a mandate to vaccinate. I am not sure having a "traditional" COVID vaccine available would make either one of them decide to take it. At this point, they both feel like they have been deceived by the government about the virus and the pandemic (which is somewhat true) and just don't want to be told what to do by the government. They both feel like they could take this vaccine, but are concerned about what other kinds of mandate might be coming down the road in the future. Whether one agrees with them or not, I'm not sure having a better vaccine option would make a difference. But maybe it would. And maybe there are a lot of other people who have not vaccinated for different reasons who would take a traditional vaccine. It wouldn't hurt anything to make one available if that is an option. There is no doubt that the vaccines have been made political, and that isn't the fault of only one side or the other, but maybe having another option would have helped depoliticize it a bit. But maybe not. This pandemic hit at a really bad time for our country. Or maybe a very opportune time for some, if one tends to think along those lines.

Yeah, I think most that I see who haven’t been vaccinated aren’t focused on the vaccine technology. It’s about the government and muh rights. The constant ramblings about a “tried and true” vaccine making some incredible difference just aren’t realistic IMO. I’m sure there’s a small subset of the unvaccinated who are outliers, but I don’t think the type of vaccine was nearly as significant as some are making it out to be. Hell, most people don’t have a damn clue about any of it and even the ones who care to learn about it can obviously reach different conclusions based on the way every Covid thread turns on the bunker.

 

[SigBitty]

Lil Bit, I'd stick with these gifs if I was you. Much better than being proven wrong over and over when you open your mouth.

Your existence, or lack thereof, would’ve been infinitely more useful as an aborted fetus

 

[Big Blue]

Yeah, I think most that I see who haven’t been vaccinated aren’t focused on the vaccine technology. It’s about the government and muh rights. The constant ramblings about a “tried and true” vaccine making some incredible difference just aren’t realistic IMO. I’m sure there’s a small subset of the unvaccinated who are outliers, but I don’t think the type of vaccine was nearly as significant as some are making it out to be. Hell, most people don’t have a damn clue about any of it and even the ones who care to learn about it can obviously reach different conclusions based on the way every Covid thread turns on the bunker.

Yeah, I'd bet there are more people who won't take the vaccine because they don't want Bill Gates' microchip than who are worried about the technology. The different subgroups who won't take it probably have different motivations though. The PhDs with hesitancy might lean more toward concerns about the technology while the lower income/education folks lean more toward the tinfoil hat concerns.

 

[au4life_rz]

Nope. Most of the public see JJ as traditional and it didn’t matter. It wouldn’t have made a difference. I’m old enough to remember when fda approval was going to make a difference. It made no difference on hesitancy. None.

If you notice, I NEVER said the FDA approval would make a difference. I thought that since it wasn't following the normal, lengthy process to gather/gauge data from the FULL LIFE-CYCLE, it wouldn't really impact those who are holding out because they are late adopters and have lower risk thresholds. I guess I was right about that.

I BELIEVE that having an LAV and/or inactivated vaccine would be different, (though honestly, given the fracked up way the leading authorities and agencies have handled this with so much deceit, moving of goalposts etc., they allowed the boggie-man to really come out of the bag. Now, some won't trust them if they came out with a 24k gold vaccine administered by angels).

As I said very early on, sometimes you lose more goodwill and good faith by trying to trick folks, than you would if you were just open and honest and told the truth using objective and balanced information. It's the old fool me once, that's on you, but fool me twice......, mentality.

 

[CPATiger]

Your existence, or lack thereof, would’ve been infinitely more useful as an aborted fetus

This is what you call a triggered Lil Bit. Thanks for the amusement loser. lol

 

[SigBitty]

This is what you call a triggered Lil Bit. Thanks for the amusement loser. lol

Your parents made a grave mistake. And I’m sure they’re aware of it.

 

[Stumpfan]

Both of these guys work for companies with government contracts and their company mandates are due to the government requirements for contractors and subcontractors. At least one of those companies hasn't even mandated the vaccine for the entire corporation but only for the subsidiaries/locations that perform work for the government. Their mandates to the employees specifically cited the government requirements. The government is absolutely the driver for these two cases. As for whether the lying by the government is overblown, that depends on folks' individual perspectives. I tend to lean toward never attributing to malice that which can more easily be explained by incompetence, especially when it comes to government but I can sympathize with folks who see malice. It isn't like the government doesn't have a long history of lying to the people.

Great. They can find a company that doesn’t mandate them. Silliest shit I’ve ever witnessed.

 

[Stumpfan]

If you notice, I NEVER said the FDA approval would make a difference. I thought that since it wasn't following the normal, lengthy process to gather/gauge data from the FULL LIFE-CYCLE, it wouldn't really impact those who are holding out because they are late adopters and have lower risk thresholds. I guess I was right about that.

I BELIEVE that having an LAV and/or inactivated vaccine would be different, (though honestly, given the fracked up way the leading authorities and agencies have handled this with so much deceit, moving of goalposts etc., they allowed the boggie-man to really come out of the bag. Now, some won't trust them if they came out with a 24k gold vaccine administered by angels).

As I said very early on, sometimes you lose more goodwill and good faith by trying to trick folks, than you would if you were just open and honest and told the truth using objective and balanced information. It's the old fool me once, that's on you, but fool me twice......, mentality.

Stop typing out long posts. Again, there’s a long list of bs excuses and fda approval was just one of many. All of them all go under politics.