Seattle RIP

[Bassman]

So, to be clear, you’re comfortable with armed protestors controlling portions of cities in the United States?
I just want to understand.

Objection Your Honor, assumes facts not in the record.

You don't want to understand, you want to dictate the terms of the discussion without regard to the facts on the ground.

If - in fact - armed groups literally seized and controlled this area - yes, it would be problematic.

But they haven't.

 

[rthomas14]

Obviously I see the problem - they've seceded from the Union. Time to Sherman them.... /facepalm

More humor?

 

[Bassman]

“The protesters continued to camp out in a self-declared “Capitol Hill Autonomous Zone” (CHAZ)-- a region spanning six blocks and encompassing the precinct-- which has effectively been abandoned by law enforcement after the Seattle Police Department closed the East Precinct on Monday.“

The first morning brought a new configuration to the streets. The police barricades and walls left behind have provided protesters the resources they need to create their own path through the neighborhood. Barriers have been dragged into a zig zag maze to block traffic from passing through 12th Ave or up and down E Pine with a steady stream of cars and trucks performing u-turns and three-point turns to avoid the blockades. Tent shelters have been put up to help keep volunteers dry at the edges of the core around 12th and Pine. At one on the southeast corner of the intersection, a few people sat around while one approached CHS and encouraged “white people” to come to the scene and help them hold the block. Above the walled-off entrance to the building, the sign has been spray painted to now read “SEATTLE PEOPLE DEPARTMENT EAST PRECINCT.”

au·ton·o·mous
/ôˈtänəməs/
adjectiv
1. (of a country or region) having the freedom to govern itself or control its own affairs.

They do...

So one can declare themselves autonomous? WOW. That's new law to me. Please update me on this fundamental, earth shattering change in our way of life.

You mean these "sovereign citizens" are RIGHT? Gummint doesn't control them? Who knew?

I can say my house is no longer a part of the US. I can post a sign in the yard that says it. I can walk around in my yard with my AR and body armor and declare that this is BASSLAND, US get out!

And I won't be autonomous and people will laugh.

 

[rthomas14]

A few armed protesters amongst a group of unorganized protesters does not constitute what would normally be thought of as an armed group.

Hmmm. Interesting.

 

[rthomas14]

Objection Your Honor, assumes facts not in the record.

You don't want to understand, you want to dictate the terms of the discussion without regard to the facts on the ground.

If - in fact - armed groups literally seized and controlled this area - yes, it would be problematic.

But they don't.

Got it. So you take exception with me for “dictating the terms of the discussion” while you attempt to “dictate the terms of the discussion”.
I didn’t label the area “autonomous”. They did. I didn’t use police barriers to control traffic flow in the area, they did.
You seem to ha e an issue with the protestors, not me.

so to be clear, you’re good with what the protestors in that area have set up and how they are handing it? That’s a simple question.

 

[Bassman]

Got it. So you take exception with me for “dictating the terms of the discussion” while you attempt to “dictate the terms of the discussion”.
I didn’t label the area “autonomous”. They did. I didn’t use police barriers to control traffic flow in the area, they did.
You seem to ha e an issue with the protestors, not me.

so to be clear, you’re good with what the protestors in that area have set up and how they are handing it? That’s a simple question.

I'm not protesting. I don't think it's bothersome.

Yet.

 

[rthomas14]

So one can declare themselves autonomous? WOW. That's new law to me. Please update me on this fundamental, earth shattering change in our way of life.

You mean these "sovereign citizens" are RIGHT? Gummint doesn't control them? Who knew?

I can say my house is no longer a part of the US. I can post a sign in the yard that says it. I can walk around in my yard with my AR and body armor and declare that this is BASSLAND, US get out!

And I won't be autonomous and people will laugh.

This is odd for you who I find to usually be a reasonable guy. you asked me “who says they do or says they believe they do?”

I answered your question and then you start talking about law. Do you think any of what is going on there is an example of people functioning within the law? Do you believe that because it’s against the law that it can’t happen?
I’ll ask again, are you in favor of what’s happening in that “autonomous zone”?

 

[Eagle]

More humor?

Tough crowd.

 

[rthomas14]

I'm not protesting. I don't it's bothersome.

Yet.

I’m assuming you meant “I don’t think it’s bothersome”
I’ll admit, that’s surprising to me.

 

[Eagle]

Antifa boogeyman, amirite?

View embedded media

Heh.... he's got a point. @rthomas14 -- this is humor also!

 

[Bassman]

Capitol Hill in Seattle is a roughly 20x25 block area. One portion of it is "barricaded off" with barricades that 2 or 3 people together can move. Pedestrian and bicycle traffic is unimpeded. Stores are open.

Perspective.

 

[Callmeabug]

If there are any sympathetic souls with an ounce of humanity left, please help these patriots,

 

[j4au_1]

An armed group does not control an area of a US city.

You obviously haven't heard of Chicago, or south LA.

 

[vanceme]

Some of the details are on fox news. It is actually pretty funny. There demands as simple. The mayor either agrees to defund the entire police department or she steps down. And the police have agreed to respond to 911 calls only.

 

[rthomas14]

Capitol Hill in Seattle is a roughly 20x25 block area. One portion of it is "barricaded off" with barricades that 2 or 3 people together can move. Pedestrian and bicycle traffic is unimpeded. Stores are open.

Perspective.

Serious question, Do you believe there would be pedestrian traffic or stores would be open if the protesters in the area weren’t in favor of it? In other words, do you find those things to be evidence that the area isn’t controlled by the protesters? The barriers you say can be moved by 2 or three people are the same barriers the police use to “control” an area. Do you think because they are movable they aren’t affective traffic control devices?
Perspective is a great word in this case. I have been 100% clear here that I believe systemic racism exists. I’ve been in a couple of knock down drag outs about it. What happened in Minneapolis has to be stopped but even more so, the events that don’t end in a death but are far more prevalent. It’s not just police. I believe change has to start with the church (personal perspective) As Dr. Robert Smith has said, we don’t have a skin problem. We have a sin problem. It’s rooted in ignorance and fear and it’s been built through generation. I’m encouraged that my kids took to what we taught them and they don’t view the world through the filter of melanin. I’m confident their children won’t either and that’s positive change. Generational change.
I also 100% understand the protests. Again, this isn’t a black problem. It’s an American problem. It’s a heart problem. When I I ask for my wife’s help and she doesn’t hear me, I ask louder. Protesting is the result of not being heard and asking for help, louder. That being said, I never throw her clothes out into yard or set her car on fire to get her attention. There are limits. You mentioned laws earlier. Civil disobedience is meant to work outside the law. To count the cost of breaking the law to prove a point. It does include the word “civil” though. Look at the photos out of Seattle that you described as “not bothersome” and show me the civility in them.

Monday night a woman involved in the protests said that “black men can’t be the leaders of this. An LGBTQ woman of color has to be the leader.” Aren’t we protesting the killing of a “black man”? As you said, perspective. It’s a wonderful thing. Another word that’s important is agendas. Lots and lots of people on both sides of these protests (if it were about George Floyd there shouldn’t be sides) have lots and lots of agendas.

change has to happen, but to get there, we can’t draw our political lines and be intellectually dishonest. We have to be real and have real conversations. I admit “Paramilitary” & “seize” are not part of an honest discussion. “Not bothersome” seems to fall short as well. “Air strikes” is stupid. So is “sorry you’re afraid of ANTIFA”.

feel free to try and paint me in any way you like, but I’ll stand behind my honesty on this board and my willingness to confront “wrong” no matter which side is offering it.

 

[Bassman]

Serious question, Do you believe there would be pedestrian traffic or stores would be open if the protesters in the area weren’t in favor of it? In other words, do you find those things to be evidence that the area isn’t controlled by the protesters? The barriers you say can be moved by 2 or three people are the same barriers the police use to “control” an area. Do you think because they are movable they aren’t affective traffic control devices?
Perspective is a great word in this case. I have been 100% clear here that I believe systemic racism exists. I’ve been in a couple of knock down drag outs about it. What happened in Minneapolis has to be stopped but even more so, the events that don’t end in a death but are far more prevalent. It’s not just police. I believe change has to start with the church (personal perspective) As Dr. Robert Smith has said, we don’t have a skin problem. We have a sin problem. It’s rooted in ignorance and fear and it’s been built through generation. I’m encouraged that my kids took to what we taught them and they don’t view the world through the filter of melanin. I’m confident their children won’t either and that’s positive change. Generational change.
I also 100% understand the protests. Again, this isn’t a black problem. It’s an American problem. It’s a heart problem. When I I ask for my wife’s help and she doesn’t hear me, I ask louder. Protesting is the result of not being heard and asking for help, louder. That being said, I never throw her clothes out into yard or set her car on fire to get her attention. There are limits. You mentioned laws earlier. Civil disobedience is meant to work outside the law. To count the cost of breaking the law to prove a point. It does include the word “civil” though. Look at the photos out of Seattle that you described as “not bothersome” and show me the civility in them.

Monday night a woman involved in the protests said that “black men can’t be the leaders of this. An LGBTQ woman of color has to be the leader.” Aren’t we protesting the killing of a “black man”? As you said, perspective. It’s a wonderful thing. Another word that’s important is agendas. Lots and lots of people on both sides of these protests (if it were about George Floyd there shouldn’t be sides) have lots and lots of agendas.

change has to happen, but to get there, we can’t draw our political lines and be intellectually dishonest. We have to be real and have real conversations. I admit “Paramilitary” & “seize” are not part of an honest discussion. “Not bothersome” seems to fall short as well. “Air strikes” is stupid. So is “sorry you’re afraid of ANTIFA”.

feel free to try and paint me in any way you like, but I’ll stand behind my honesty on this board and my willingness to confront “wrong” no matter which side is offering it.

I probably wouldn't have responded at all had it not been for the total mis-characterization of what is occurring on the front end of this post by OP and others. Sure we need to have conversations and we need to avoid sowing further divisions.

 

[rthomas14]

I probably wouldn't have responded at all had it not been for the total mis-characterization of what is occurring on the front end of this post by OP and others. Sure we need to have conversations and we need to avoid sowing further divisions.

Cool, but you did respond and then dug you’re heels in while talking with me to the point of saying “it’s not bothersome”. I’m not Opie or others. I haven’t offered a single thing Itt that is t based in fact.

 

[rthomas14]

Well you keep referring to them as an armed group. And that is not based on fact.

Yep, which is 100% true. I can’t imagine how you can even begin to suggest it isn’t.
They are a group of people - check
Among that group are people with guns - check

Was the ridiculous group at the Michigan capital an “armed group”? Of course they were. Was everyone there armed? Of course they weren’t.
How many weapons have to be present for a group to be “armed”? I seriously don’t get your argument here.

 

[vanceme]

How many should be armed to consider them to be an armed group? Well it sure helps if, at a minimum, a majority of the group is armed. By your very own logic, you should take no issue with me referring to them as an unarmed group, as most of them are unarmed.

You are so funny. I guess you could call them mostly unarmed and somewhat armed. Would that be better for you?

 

[rthomas14]

Somehow you seem to think that an entire group can be wholly defined by a minority within it. These are some tremendous mental gymnastics.

Ok, so that I’m not engaging in “tremendous mental gymnastics” please educate me. In a group of 100 people, how many of them need to be carrying weapons for that group to be characterized as “armed”?
Headline with this photo is,
Leader of Fishtown group armed with bats, explains...

Is the headline wrong?

 

[rthomas14]

America is a nation of racists. We are a nation. There are racists within it. You should take no issue with me referring to America in such a manner.

So is that a yes or no? I appreciate your attempt to muddy the water but at least answer the question.
To your point, you feel free to refer to America however you wish. If you are so wrapped around the axel of semantics that you Are unwilling or unable to be reasonable, that’s a you thing. Good luck with that.

 

[rthomas14]

Is seems as though you’re completely willing to define groups by minorities within them, only so long as it fits your own narrative.

So, I guess I’m just missing your answer. I’m sure it’s there. I can’t imagine you would still be attempting to deflect and avoid.
What I’m completely willing to do is state the truth. A group that includes people with weapons is an armed group.
It seems as though you’re completely Willing to be transparently disingenuous to try and support your point no matter how flawed it may be.

 

[rthomas14]

Only if you’re willing to define groups by minorities within them. Again, by your own logic you should take no issue with me referring to them as an unarmed group.

So was that a yes or no?
Let me ask again so you can remember the question.
Headline with this photo is,
Leader of Fishtown group armed with bats, explains...

Is the headline wrong?

I find your take on this to be fascinating and as symptomatic of our issues as the foolishness @Eagle was calling “humor”.

you would rather dig your heels in about whether a group carrying guns is “armed” than seriously discuss their bigger issue of what’s going on in our country.

amazing, really.

 

[vanceme]

Sure, considering it’s a far more accurate representation than the one you are desperately trying to convey. Do you take issue with me referring to America is a nation of racists? We are a nation. There are racists within this nation. According to his logic you should take no issue with this.

Nope no issues with that statement as I agree there are racist of all colors and backgrounds all over this nation. Of course I also believe we are an armed society although I do recognize not all people believe in being armed just as not all people are racist.

 

[rthomas14]

You’re minimizing the issue. The issue here is a gross misrepresentation of facts. It’s fear mongering. Can I assume you take no issue with me referring to them as an unarmed group, using your own logic of course?

So you just refuse to simply answer the question? What are you scared of? It’s an easy question.
You don’t have to “assume” anything. I’ve already answered your question (see how that works?) but let me do so a second time. You are welcome to refer to the group in anyway you wish. It has no impact on me at all. That being said, armed means - equipped with or carrying a weapon or weapons.
This group meets that definition. There’s no way around that, but again, you define this group or America or anything else, however you wish if it makes you feel better.

 

[rthomas14]

Oh so you’d rather refer to them as a single entity because it suits your narrative better. Interesting

Ummm, for a few hours now, we have been discussing a “group”. Now you’re New attempt to change the narrative is that I am somehow “referring to them as a single entity”? The same “single entity” you have referred to throughout this conversation? Yikes...

oh yeah, the question. Why are you scared to answer it? Your refusal has become laughable.

 

[Eagle]

So was that a yes or no?
Let me ask again so you can remember the question.
Headline with this photo is,
Leader of Fishtown group armed with bats, explains...

Is the headline wrong?

I find your take on this to be fascinating and as symptomatic of our issues as the foolishness @Eagle was calling “humor”.

you would rather dig your heels in about whether a group carrying guns is “armed” than seriously discuss their bigger issue of what’s going on in our country.

amazing, really.

All right I’ll be serious.

I think one of our bigger problems is people’s inability to laugh and enjoy their day. Everything is so serious, so literal, so offensive to someone... We have a victimization mentality, people looking to get offended at everything they can.

I mock those people, openly

 

[rthomas14]

So by your logic, a single armed individual within a group is all it takes to constitute an armed group. You feel justified by labeling an entire group based upon the characteristics of a single individual. Yikes. Take a nap old man. Your episode will be over soon.

Your fear of a simple question is both telling embarrassing.
So your latest deflection, like the others, failed. I guess you’re out of ideas so now it’s time to resort to insults? How Bunker of you.

Sorry I don’t play by the silly rules that you and the aids board gang like to play. I’m just interested in truth and honest discussion. That appears to be too much for you. It wasn’t my intent to paint you into such an embarrassing corner. I apologize.

 

[rthomas14]

All right I’ll be serious.

I think one of our bigger problems is people’s inability to laugh and enjoy their day. Everything is so serious, so literal, so offensive to someone... We have a victimization mentality, people looking to get offended at everything they can.

I mock those people, openly

Well, I enjoy every single day I’ve been given. I would be so bold as to say, there are an extremely few here that enjoy life more than do I.
The fact that you think our conversation has anything to do with victimization or being offended speaks to a lack of awareness of what we are discussing but if it makes you feel good about yourself, cool.
Nothing funnier that a suggestion that American citizens should be carpet bombed. That’s some “enjoy your day” kinda stuff right there.

 

[Eagle]

Well, I enjoy every single day I’ve been given. I would be so bold as to say, there are an extremely few here that enjoy life more than do I.
The fact that you think our conversation has anything to do with victimization or being offended speaks to a lack of awareness of what we are discussing but if it makes you feel good about yourself, cool.
Nothing funnier that a suggestion that American citizens should be carpet bombed. That’s some “enjoy your day” kinda stuff right there.

Man you sound like a hilarious guy to be around, I’ll admit. And I guess you missed the part about 1)pull the people out and 2)Antifa declaring themselves an independent nation.

Nothing like making a pointless argument huh? You Musta lost the point with that great sense of humor.

 

[rthomas14]

You’ve deflected one significant issue this whole time. You have no issue branding an entire group by a single individual. Just look, once again rthomas is proclaiming as loudly as he can that he is winning a debate. How pitiful. How telling. How insecure.

Debate? You've embarrassed yourself by refusing to answer a simple question. You don’t seem to be up for a debate. Again, I do apologize for putting you in such an untenable position. I actually just wanted an answer. I had no idea of the lengths you would go to avoid doing so.

 

[rthomas14]

Man you sound like a hilarious guy to be around, I’ll admit. And I guess you missed the part about 1)pull the people out and 2)Antifa declaring themselves an independent nation.

Nothing like making a pointless argument huh? You Musta lost the point with that great sense of humor.

No question that my sense of humor is where the issue lies in this discussion.
As far as the value in making pointless arguments, I’ll have to bow to your expertise.

 

[rthomas14]

Why are you avoiding the issue? You have no problem labeling an entire group according to the actions/characteristics of a single individual or minority within the group? This is embarrassing. Never took rthomas for one comfortable with sweeping generalizations. Nor one to be scared of ANTIFA boogeymen.

Oh my...
Let me ask again:
Headline with this photo is,
Leader of Fishtown group armed with bats, explains...

Is the headline wrong?

 

[rthomas14]

Let me ask again. Are you comfortable labeling groups based on minorities within them? Are you comfortable with sweeping generalizations?

Headline with this photo is,
Leader of Fishtown group armed with bats, explains...

Is the headline wrong?

 

[rthomas14]

Labeling groups based on a minority. Are you comfortable with it?

Headline with this photo is,
Leader of Fishtown group armed with bats, explains...

Is the headline wrong?

 

[rthomas14]

Sweeping generalizations?

You know what, sint your fear of answering a simple question is palpable, I’ll go ahead and destroy your latest straw man.
You mention “sweeping generalities”. You and I have been discussing a group. As you labelled it in one of your previous diversion attempts, a “single entity”. There ate no “Sweeping generalities” of a single entity. If I were to say, “the members of the group were armed” then I would be speaking in generalities and making a false statement. When speaking of a group (which we both have done since the beginning of the discussion) it is a 100% true statement to say the group was armed. There’s no way around that. So to answer your question one more time, I don’t speak in generalities. I speak in truths which is exactly what I’ve done here.
Seriously, why are you so scared to answer a question. You always seem so aggressive and sure of yourself when I read your posts. Why the fear today?

Headline with this photo is,
Leader of Fishtown group armed with bats, explains...

Is the headline wrong?

 

[rthomas14]

Oh so now you assume they are a single organized group. What a convenient assumption.

You mean the single group you’ve referred to all day?
So is your normal practice when your embarrassed to then just go into troll mode to try and hide your embarrassment? It’s really sad. I’ve never seen you so rattled.

Headline with this photo is,
Leader of Fishtown group armed with bats, explains...

Is the headline wrong?

 

[rthomas14]

I think the best part of all of this is that you’ve been here this long arguing against the notion that “armed paramilitary seize control and impose their anti-democratic agenda” is an in accurate representation of reality. You try so hard to be a fence sitter, the voice of reason, and you fall so far short. Those biases and preconceived notions just won’t let you do it.

I think the best part of all of this is that you’re just another of one the sheeple that can’t deal with anyone who doesn’t walk in lockstep with their every view on the world. Who is so stiff necked that they don’t have the ability to reason and when confronted with a question that challenges their ideas, they grasp at any and every straw they can to avoid the truth.

it’s both humorous and sad.

 

[warchief64]

Headline with this photo is,
Leader of Fishtown group armed with bats, explains...

Is the headline wrong?

Technically..yes. Should read "armed with bats and cigs".

I can't believe I just read this entire thread. You two argued literally all day over this. Y'all took ricing to a whole nother level.

 

[DM8]

I haven't seen any mention of guns in this "autonomous zone" other than, like... a single random dude on twitter.

Also, the city is continuing to provide services to the area... and the protesters are accepting them.

"Seattle Public Utilities, meanwhile was at the scene with a large crew of contractors clearing up debris... The mayor said previously she hoped the crews would help to clean up the area daily. The city is also maintaining chemical toilets in Cal Anderson and will add a new bank of toilets outside Seattle Central on Broadway in a bid to avoid the health problems that dogged the neighborhood’s Occupy camp nearly a decade ago."

This is just another protest. Meh.

But but but someone on facebook/OAN told me the ANTIFAs had declared independence and were executing every white person who refused to swear loyalty to SOROS!