you don’t tactically. That is stupid. What you do is use less lethal force to get it to a manageable number so that officers can deal with the situation.
Huntsville PD says they tear gassed a peaceful crowd as a "precaution"...
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you don’t tactically. That is stupid. What you do is use less lethal force to get it to a manageable number so that officers can deal with the situation.
I appreciate you attempting to look something up to learn more about this topic. That's more than can be said for most ITT. The state is certainly allowed to put reasonable limits on the time and place for the exercise of free speech. That's where the "civil disobedience" aspect of this issue comes into play. By remaining at the courthouse square beyond the time allotted by their permit and after the police told them to leave, the protesters yesterday were engaging in civil disobedience. This is exactly the same as the civil rights demonstrators in the 1960s who did not have permits and refused to disperse when ordered to do so. Both were engaging in peaceful civil disobedience and the police attacked them with tear gas. Can you see why the two situations are similar now?
They had plenty of time to disperse. The city leaders chose to end the confrontation. The city also made a cogent choice to not request military support. They wanted to handle it with law enforcement. They used tear gas and rubber bullets to get people out of the area. I wish that had not ended that way but humans make choices every day that have consequences. I don’t fault the city for doing what they could to keep things from going to a dark place with rioting and looting.
I’m trying to see how you’re connecting the two I really am, but the glaring difference TO ME is you had a clear and open BLACK VS WHITE problem in the 60s. You had a movement for equality being squashed by some rednecks (Bull Connor had to be a Bama fan, surely).
Fast forward to 2020, a good chunk of our law enforcement is African American. They swore an oath to protect our citizens and our community. They gave the crowd last night 90 mins of time.... AN HOUR AND A HALF of additional time to peacefully protest. But when asked to move along and clear the streets they refused. Much like Birmingham’s mayor politely asking the folks in the park Sunday night “we hear you, but it’s time to move on and disperse. We will continue tomorrow” and what happened? They boo’d his ass and didn’t even let him finish. Then they marched downtown and destroyed everything.
I get what you’re trying to prove I just don’t know why you’re unwilling to acknowledge there’s a difference between this week and 1963. And there’s a difference between peaceful protesting and enticing riots.
I never said the two situations are identical. Obviously that's not the case. The cause at issue now is not the same and its certainly not strictly a racial issue. Plenty of white people have been subject of excessive police violence as well as I pointed out earlier ITT.
Where the situations are similar is that non violent protesters engaging in civil disobedience were met with violence from police last night in Huntsville just as they were in Birmingham in the 1960s. The two situations are identical in that regard. I would have thought everyone would agree the attacks on civil rights protesters in the 1960s were terrible. Sadly, I was wrong as many ITT had said they agreed with those tactics.
You aren’t making an argument regarding what should’ve happened or what is morally right. You’re just stating what happened and saying, “I don’t fault them.” So I assume you’re saying you think what HSV did was the morally proper decision. The question is “Why?”
Read through some of the counter arguments and comparisons I made in the thread, and then reply to those. That’ll likely be more constructive if we want to have a discussion about it.
If you don’t want to acknowledge the racial let of this, I am almost ok with it so long as you acknowledge that there absolutely is an issue of statism and authoritarianism. And that those issues are problems.
Well for starters you’ve implied countless times these situations are the same lol.
But to your point, is tear gas “violent”? That’d make a good POLE question. The gas was used first. Actually, let me back up... verbal warnings and other deterrents were used initially. For several mins. Smoke bombs, flash bangs, crowd doesn’t budge. If I’m there with my 3 year old at that point I’m backing the F up. But finally some tear gas. Why not leave then? Hell, some did the classic move of throwing the tear gas back at the police which always works lol. Others stood there to make a stand and show they aren’t backing down. It’s at that point the motivation tactics get cranked up a notch.
You just keep painting this picture of a bunch of hippies standing in the street having a good ole time when all of a sudden hell rained down upon them. That’s just not the case.
I am a practical person that believes in action and reaction. Choices equal consequences. I teach my kids this daily. So no, I have no moral issue. If they opened fire with real ammo and drove tanks in and crushed people or used flame throwers then I have a problem. They used less lethal force to get people the hell out of the area. No moral issue with that.
Nor was there a moral issue in turning the fire hoses on Civil Rights protestors who were blocking a roadway or didn’t have a permit, right?
Why do you guys ask about that shit. What is this straw man argument shit. Stick to the discussion.
The armed protesters in Michigan had no permit so they had no right to be there occupying the state capital during the day or night. If the crowd in Huntsville had all showed up with AR-15s, I am confident you would have had a problem with them at any time of the day.
Using violence against peaceful protesters was wrong in the 1960s and it is still wrong today.
I’ll acknowledge all of that. I’ll also acknowledge police don’t just kill black people. More so, I’ll acknowledge that there’s no way in hell I could be a cop. I don’t see how they do it, the stress must be insane. Having to protect and serve folks that want you dead sounds like a dreamy gig, don’t it?
Lastly I’ll acknowledge that it took George Floyd getting murdered in May of 2020 for MILLIONS of people in this country to decide and stand up for BLM and police brutality. Seems like they stood up the last few times this happened as well, then a week later they go back to their cushy lives and next big trendy topic.
I’m not happy about that last statement, it’s just facts. I ran 3.2 miles in honor of Ahmaud Arbery a few weeks back. (I have the Strava data to prove that too lol), so trust me I’m not an inconsiderate “neutral” person. This stuff saddens me every time. As I keep saying, nobody really wins here unfortunately.
It isn’t a straw man, it is an analogous scenario used to reveal either your inconsistency or biases, and your refusal to answer it is glaring. For the record, if I’m going to be inconsistent, I’m going to just say, “Hell no it wasn’t ok to hose MLK,” and deal with being unable to justify actions against the HSV protestors. Even if it is a lie. But that’s just me.
How about this: Can you envision any scenario where peaceful protestors should NOT be gassed or otherwise brutalized for being past curfew or without a permit?
hey I just wanted to see how long we could go. Good job. I like the way you hung in there. You deserve a beer for the effort.
Sometimes the most important part of solving a problem is convincing enough people that there is a question that needs to be answered.
I’m feeling 20. Though once it hits 15, JGT may bring down the hammer had banish it to PoRe obscurity.
I can.
I’m imagining a group of hundreds of peaceful protestors gathered on a city square on a Wednesday night an hour or so after the initial protest. After an hour and a half I have this vision of the local authorities saying in their best Andy Griffith voice “alllllright now folks, time to move along now and get back home to your families so we can open the streets back up and continue business as usual down here”.
Then in my head I see the crowd look at each other and go “y’all hear that? They want us to finally leave here. Welp, lets be on our way now. See y’all next protest”.
Next question.
Why are you so angry? This thread clearly upsets you, but no one is forcing you to read or post in it.
Rice used a nutty straw man earlier to claim I wanted to see no more police in our country. On the contrary, the best solution I have seen floated would be federal legislation that provides more funding for police salaries that would be contingent upon departments adopting uniform minimum training and use of force policies. By letting law enforcement groups participate in drafting the legislation, I think that could be a good solution that would give all sides some of the things they want.
I said if they don’t overstay the curfew or permit. I know you know that, but I’m just stating it again because...like maybe I said it wrong?
Matt, I respect your opinions and always have. You have a nice way of getting a point across without being an ass. Danny doesn't have that same ability. He comes across as a condescending know it all without the ability to acknowledge another person's opinion if it differs from his. By the way ....what is the question that needs to be answered?
“Is there a need for massive reform of the law enforcement system?”
Next question is: “So, what needs to change?”
Once those are answered, then we work on solutions.
This is the most true statement is this entire thread if Danny is DM8.
I’ve went back and read your post 3 times lol, Maybe you did say it wrong bc I felt like my reply was spot on. Could just be a sign I need to exit das Búnker for the night.
In your first post directed at me ITT, you told me to "shut the fu*k up" and yet you are crying about me not being nice to you? That's wild, brAUh.
So HPD arrested someone who attempted to throw a makeshift grenade last night. It burned in his hand...doesn't sound peaceful.
They also arrested 24 in total. Three were in possession of stolen property. The property was fire extinguishers from the Clinton Ave parking garage lol.
Also see all my friends on IG sharing the CashApp link for bailing the HSV folks out of jail. *face palm*
I'm not in the least bit angry but I'm just sick of your political rhetoric when it meets your agenda. You have overkilled this thread with the continuous referral to 1960. That is not applicable to the events of 2020. Yet, you have chosen to equate the bigotry and racism from that time to where we are today. There is no comparison between the two time frames and you should know that.
