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Update #? (More numbers from the coast-echoing @stevesawbone)

Or, as usual, you are only trying to spin and skew the data because you've been so adamant that almost no one in healthcare is refusing the vaccine. BigBlue specifically said "nurses", so unless he, or his data is incorrect, that definitely doesn't include janitors and orderlies et al.

It's just crazy and rather sad to see behavior like this.
Lol. From Mr. Hickory on resounding to the same post you responded to:

This is true, most of our unvaccinated in our hospital system are also those of high school education backgrounds. Our maintenance and custodial services makes up 90% of our unvaccinated.”

Now please STFU. You just got owned.
 
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So you can predict what the vaccine will do for us years down the road? Did you hop in a time machine? What is the spread on the Auburn vs AL game this year and does Auburn cover.

If there is one thing that almost every expert in the world can agree on it is that they have no clue what long term effects or durability of the vaccine, natural immunity, or covid 19 are. They can only accurately speak on what they have been able to see so far and none of them can see into the future. They can all form an opinion on long term effects, but all will follow it up with only time can tell.
Do you think I made up that myself? No. Leading experts in the field has said based on the trials, we can expect them to last 2-3 years at least. So I’ll take that to mean most healthy people will have immunity for 2-3 years and probably longer from severe disease.
 
Or, as usual, you are only trying to spin and skew the data because you've been so adamant that almost no one in healthcare is refusing the vaccine. BigBlue specifically said "nurses", so unless he, or his data is incorrect, that definitely doesn't include janitors and orderlies et al.

It's just crazy and rather sad to see behavior like this.

I believe it said that 12% of both RN's and docs were hesitant to get the shot.

Nursing is also a really wide field ranging from associates degrees to doctorates. I'd imagine the 22 year olds straight out of school are the least vaccinated of that group. That would fit with general trends. Most 22 year olds think they're invincible. I did. Then you have all the techs and other front line workers that people assume are nurses but have somewhat limited medical training beyond their specific job duties.

""There's a big divide between males, doctoral degree holders, older people, and the younger low-income, low-education frontline, female health care workers. They are the most hesitant," he says. Support staff typically outnumber doctors at hospitals about 3 to 1."
 
We are over 70% of adults vaccinated in Oregon for a couple of weeks now. This has given me comfort but our numbers are starting to go up a bit.
And they will. You have kids and 30% of adults there for Delta to visit. All will have surges but OR will be better off than a state like AL.
 
I believe it said that 12% of both RN's and docs were hesitant to get the shot.

Nursing is also a really wide field ranging from associates degrees to doctorates. I'd imagine the 22 year olds straight out of school are the least vaccinated of that group. That would fit with general trends. Most 22 year olds think they're invincible. I did. Then you have all the techs and other front line workers that people assume are nurses but have somewhat limited medical training beyond their specific job duties.

""There's a big divide between males, doctoral degree holders, older people, and the younger low-income, low-education frontline, female health care workers. They are the most hesitant," he says. Support staff typically outnumber doctors at hospitals about 3 to 1."
Oooof, @au4life_rz
 
It's astounding how people who have taken the vaccine has called everyone that doesn't stupid and that any data shown that does not fit in with their views is dangerous information. I am a contractor that goes to bat with insurance companies on a daily basis. When I form my opinion on what is needed for the job and the adjuster forms a different opinion I can realize that no amount of arguing will change their opinion just like it will not change mine. I love how everyone thinks they can force their opinion on some else, while also not realizing that the person they are trying to talk to can be just as strong in their opposing view as they are with their views. The environment we live in today amazes me how everyone thinks their point of view is the gold standard and everyone who does not follow that standard is obviously stupid. It just shows how stupid the person is that can't understand that someone else could have a different opinion than them.

I don't think I've ever called anyone stupid. In fact I have said a number of times that I think people who are vaccine-hesitant aren't stupid or malicious. That doesn't mean they aren't wrong. You are generally making the same point I was making. That minds aren't being changed regardless of the overwhelming facts, data, and medical opinion.

I completely agree that some people have an opinion that won't be changed. Which is the point I was making.

The fact that people have deeply held, sincere views, though, doesn't mean those views are correct. Such as with the vaccine. Fearing the vaccine more than covid is perfectly fine. You have a right to do it, and a right to make the choice not to get vaccinated. But the mere fact that people have the right to disagree or hold different opinions does not mean that all opinions are created equal. Some make sense. Some are in direct opposition to common sense and data. We don't have to treat every opinion, no matter how deeply held, as equivalent to all other opinions. Some opinions do have more value than others.

And for whatever it is worth, I change insurance adjusters' opinions on a daily basis. It ain't easy, but it isn't impossible.
 
So you can predict what the vaccine will do for us years down the road? Did you hop in a time machine? What is the spread on the Auburn vs AL game this year and does Auburn cover.

If there is one thing that almost every expert in the world can agree on it is that they have no clue what long term effects or durability of the vaccine, natural immunity, or covid 19 are. They can only accurately speak on what they have been able to see so far and none of them can see into the future. They can all form an opinion on long term effects, but all will follow it up with only time can tell.

Here is a great article from the director of the Vaccine Research Clinic at UAB? You would agree he knows what he is talking about right? I guess you'll go back to "but you don't know the future!" And of course you're correct. No one knows the future. All we can do is make reasonable assumptions based upon the available data. For instance, I don't know that someone won't fly through a blind curve when I'm going through a green light, and they have a red light. Maybe someone will fly through and kill me or maim me. But I use the available data and make a decision. That's what medical doctors and medical researchers are doing with the covid vaccine. And the big difference is that choosing not to go through a green light isn't dangerous. Not getting the vaccine could be deadly.

 
Here is a great article from the director of the Vaccine Research Clinic at UAB? You would agree he knows what he is talking about right? I guess you'll go back to "but you don't know the future!" And of course you're correct. No one knows the future. All we can do is make reasonable assumptions based upon the available data. For instance, I don't know that someone won't fly through a blind curve when I'm going through a green light, and they have a red light. Maybe someone will fly through and kill me or maim me. But I use the available data and make a decision. That's what medical doctors and medical researchers are doing with the covid vaccine. And the big difference is that choosing not to go through a green light isn't dangerous. Not getting the vaccine could be deadly.

Just for some fun on the Bunker, here is an article that is WTDL, but I think worth the read for some balance. We all make decisions based on the narrative that we have chosen to adopt and when you go all-in on one side or the other it's a bi7ch to change a strongly held position. I don't pretend to believe that I will change anyone's opinion but, the dynamics of this pandemic have many more facets than most of us know. Thinking that #teamvax is the hero and #teamdontjabme is the culprit might not actually be correct. So, if you want some fun reading, go ahead and click this article and I'll get my helmet on.

 
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The info on Pfizer is very interesting. I had assumed that the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines were practically identical. Apparently, this is not the case and that Moderna (and maybe J&J?) possibly offer more protection against delta than Pfizer? Are the numbers/differences you are seeing statistically significant?
Maderna vaccines dose is a lot more than Phizer from what I have read.
 
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I don't think I've ever called anyone stupid. In fact I have said a number of times that I think people who are vaccine-hesitant aren't stupid or malicious. That doesn't mean they aren't wrong. You are generally making the same point I was making. That minds aren't being changed regardless of the overwhelming facts, data, and medical opinion.

I completely agree that some people have an opinion that won't be changed. Which is the point I was making.

The fact that people have deeply held, sincere views, though, doesn't mean those views are correct. Such as with the vaccine. Fearing the vaccine more than covid is perfectly fine. You have a right to do it, and a right to make the choice not to get vaccinated. But the mere fact that people have the right to disagree or hold different opinions does not mean that all opinions are created equal. Some make sense. Some are in direct opposition to common sense and data. We don't have to treat every opinion, no matter how deeply held, as equivalent to all other opinions. Some opinions do have more value than others.

And for whatever it is worth, I change insurance adjusters' opinions on a daily basis. It ain't easy, but it isn't impossible.
I know I responded to your quote, but it is just was where I was at so far in the conversation. My statement was meant to be a general statement in regards to the other comments at that point that have called unvaccinated people dumb, uneducated, white, republican, murderers because when they tell someone what to do and they do not do it then it must mean they fall into one of those categories. Sorry if it seams like I directed my statement towards you, because there are 100 others on this board it should have been directed to.

By the way, you don't change adjusters opinions you hit them with indisputable facts to where they have no choice but to do what they are suppose to. I promise you, you have never changed an adjuster's mind by calling him stupid, dumb, or uneducated. I exclusively supplement for contractors now and definitely get adjusters to change there stance, but not by trying to degrade them.
 
Do you think I made up that myself? No. Leading experts in the field has said based on the trials, we can expect them to last 2-3 years at least. So I’ll take that to mean most healthy people will have immunity for 2-3 years and probably longer from severe disease.
Do you think anyone can factually tell you the effects of something 2-3 years down the road that hasn't even been out for that long?
 
I know I responded to your quote, but it is just was where I was at so far in the conversation. My statement was meant to be a general statement in regards to the other comments at that point that have called unvaccinated people dumb, uneducated, white, republican, murderers because when they tell someone what to do and they do not do it then it must mean they fall into one of those categories. Sorry if it seams like I directed my statement towards you, because there are 100 others on this board it should have been directed to.

By the way, you don't change adjusters opinions you hit them with indisputable facts to where they have no choice but to do what they are suppose to. I promise you, you have never changed an adjuster's mind by calling him stupid, dumb, or uneducated. I exclusively supplement for contractors now and definitely get adjusters to change there stance, but not by trying to degrade them.
The facts have been given many times. Some don’t want to listen to them. The facts are you’re 25 times less likely to die or be hospitalized from Covid if you’re vaccinated. You’re about 8 times less likely to get symptomatic delta Covid if you’re vaccinated.
 
Do you think anyone can factually tell you the effects of something 2-3 years down the road that hasn't even been out for that long?
Nothing is 100% until it happens obviously.
 
Just for some fun on the Bunker, here is an article that is WTDL, but I think worth the read for some balance. We all make decisions based on the narrative that we have chosen to adopt and when you go all-in on one side or the other it's a bi7ch to change a strongly held position. I don't pretend to believe that I will change anyone's opinion but, the dynamics of this pandemic have many more facets than most of us know. Thinking that #teamvax is the hero and #teamdontjabme is the culprit might not actually be correct. So, if you want some fun reading, go ahead and click this article and I'll get my helmet on.



Mass infection prevention and mass vaccination with leaky Covid-19 vaccines in the midst of the pandemic can only breed highly infectious variants.

 
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Mass infection prevention and mass vaccination with leaky Covid-19 vaccines in the midst of the pandemic can only breed highly infectious variants.

Lol. Again, are you idiots actually saying we should’ve waited to roll out the vaccine?
 
And they will. You have kids and 30% of adults there for Delta to visit. All will have surges but OR will be better off than a state like AL.
I should have stated that it is the unvaccinated that are causing our numbers to rise. I'm a type 1 diabetic so I take extra precautions.
 
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That's great news, but please keep an eye out, and consider other reasons that the numbers could be going up, even though you guys are at 70%.

The spin will likely be to only place focus on and blame the "unvaccinated", but if we want to get through this thing as quickly as possible, we need to do REAL science, and investigate all plausible causes and options for solutions.
It is primarily the unvaccinated according to data our local news is giving us. Our overall numbers are still really good compared to other states but they aren't perfect yet.
 
And they will. You have kids and 30% of adults there for Delta to visit. All will have surges but OR will be better off than a state like AL.
FL's at 69.2% of adults, compared to Oregon's 72%. FL has a greater proportion of 65+ vaxxed as well. There's still pressure being put on their hospitals. Oregon's main advantage is weather.
 
FL's at 69.2% of adults, compared to Oregon's 72%. FL has a greater proportion of 65+ vaxxed as well. There's still pressure being put on their hospitals. Oregon's main advantage is weather.
56% vs 49% total population. No idea who has more natural immunity though. 3% difference in over 65.
 
The facts have been given many times. Some don’t want to listen to them. The facts are you’re 25 times less likely to die or be hospitalized from Covid if you’re vaccinated. You’re about 8 times less likely to get symptomatic delta Covid if you’re vaccinated.
So here are some long term facts regarding products approved by FDA to later be removed by the FDA due to long term effects. Please also keep in mind the FDA still has not even approved the vaccines yet. So facts are that people have to decide for themselves what risk they are willing to take and which ones they are not. I hope there are no long term effects of the vaccine, but also would love to rub it in everyone's face who chastised someone for questioning how the vaccine may effect them long term.

 
So here are some long term facts regarding products approved by FDA to later be removed by the FDA due to long term effects. Please also keep in mind the FDA still has not even approved the vaccines yet. So facts are that people have to decide for themselves what risk they are willing to take and which ones they are not. I hope there are no long term effects of the vaccine, but also would love to rub it in everyone's face who chastised someone for questioning how the vaccine may effect them long term.

Drugs are different than vaccines. Almost all issues with vaccines show up in weeks.They will approve it very soon and that won’t matter to you.
 
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56% vs 49% total population. No idea who has more natural immunity though. 3% difference in over 65.
Right. Oregon has a slight advantage in vax rate overall, FL a slight vax rate amongst the most vulnerable. FL has had >2x the rate of diagnoses per capita overall, so likely a substantial advantage in natural immunity. Vax rate alone isn't likely to protect Oregon from something approximating FL's hospitalization situation. Weather should help (for now). Also, I'd suspect Oregon hasn't gotten as many new residents in the past 12-18 months.
 
Right. Oregon has a slight advantage in vax rate overall, FL a slight vax rate amongst the most vulnerable. FL has had >2x the rate of diagnoses per capita overall, so likely a substantial advantage in natural immunity. Vax rate alone isn't likely to protect Oregon from something approximating FL's hospitalization situation. Weather should help (for now). Also, I'd suspect Oregon hasn't gotten as many new residents in the past 12-18 months.
So will Oregon get two surges in your opinion? Now and this winter? FL? I assumed FL probably had more natural immunity. Gottlieb seems ro think this could be last major surge.
 
So will Oregon get two surges in your opinion? Now and this winter? FL? I assumed FL probably had more natural immunity. Gottlieb seems ro think this could be last major surge.
Don't know. It's possible that things will be mild enough that it will allow them to avoid a massive spike that puts pressure on the hospitals, as they continue to get vaxxed. They haven't ever really gotten slammed at any one point like most places have.
 
That article I linked said 1/4th of hospital workers who have direct contact with patients refuse the vaccine. That category could include anybody from doctors and nurses to orderlies. I would assume docs and nurses would be more likely to take the vaccine than the others, but I’m sure there are too many of them who won’t.

Then I stand corrected. I read it wrong and thought for certain you'd specifically said nurses. I'd certainly think a MUCH higher percentage of doctors and nurses would take it, than orderlies and janitors. As you migrate to different socio-economic levels, it's typical for ALL kinds of healthcare to lag, and especially, preventative care, (so that doesn't really tell us anything that we shouldn't already expect IMHO).
 
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Out at your source being A FACEBOOK LINK

So, if an actual, real senator, (and I'm ASSuming he's really a senator), gets a bunch of doctors from a broad range of specialties, to come together to discuss current HOT Covid topics, you will dismiss it offhand, without even inspecting it???

Folks, we might have a clear case in point as to why we are where we are with this thing, and also where we are as a country with the current fake news climate in the zeitgeist. I believe there's still wisdom in the saying that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but I do respect others opinions to different philosophies.

I'll just end it quickly by saying that you'll miss a LOT of great information taking that approach, and you'll be MUCH more likely to only get one-sided "information" that leads to myopia. God bless us all.
 
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Lol. From Mr. Hickory on resounding to the same post you responded to:

This is true, most of our unvaccinated in our hospital system are also those of high school education backgrounds. Our maintenance and custodial services makes up 90% of our unvaccinated.”

Now please STFU. You just got owned.

Stomp, if it makes you have a day in your life where you consider yourself a "winner", then consider me "owned". You win internet pissing match all da time, cause you da man!!! Thank you for blessing us with your astute wisdom ee'ryday.

Back on the important topic. I thought you didn't like anecdotal evidence, or is it just that you flip-flop and are extremely hypocritical whenever something fits your chosen narrative. I don't think that's the best way to operate. I also wish that you could grasp what hanging your hat COMPLETELY on such a small data point does, (i.e. the flaws in that approach), but you just don't seem to understand.
 
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So, if an actual, real senator, (and I'm ASSuming he's really a senator), gets a bunch of doctors from a broad range of specialties, to come together to discuss current HOT Covid topics, you will dismiss it offhand, without even inspecting it???

Folks, we might have a clear case in point as to why we are where we are with this thing, and also where we are as a country with the current fake news climate in the zeitgeist. I believe there's still wisdom in the saying that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but I do respect others opinions to different philosophies.

I'll just end it quickly by saying that you'll miss a LOT of great information taking that approach, and you'll be MUCH more likely to only get one-sided "information" that leads to myopia. God bless us all.
Facebook is literally the last place I’ll look for “opinions”
 
Facebook is literally the last place I’ll look for “opinions”

Here again. That's certainly your right, but in this case you missed a senator who'd used his position to get a LOT of qualified panelists to provide their qualified opinions on this pandemic. Opinions that you are VERY unlikely to hear elsewhere, but I get it. Not everyone cares about objectivity, trying to determine the best approximation of the truth and such.

I'll certainly sniff around and actually inspect the goods to see if there is good information, rather than judging the book by its cover, and dismissing it offhand before even inspecting it. IMHO, that's how you learn, grow and gain perspective.
 
So, if an actual, real senator, (and I'm ASSuming he's really a senator), gets a bunch of doctors from a broad range of specialties, to come together to discuss current HOT Covid topics, you will dismiss it offhand, without even inspecting it???

Folks, we might have a clear case in point as to why we are where we are with this thing, and also where we are as a country with the current fake news climate in the zeitgeist. I believe there's still wisdom in the saying that you shouldn't judge a book by its cover, but I do respect others opinions to different philosophies.

I'll just end it quickly by saying that you'll miss a LOT of great information taking that approach, and you'll be MUCH more likely to only get one-sided "information" that leads to myopia. God bless us all.

The thing is, you shouldn’t speak to a broad array of specialties regarding COVID patients. Most COVID admissions will only see 4-5 types of doctors during their stay. Usually an ER doc, a hospitalist, a pulmonary/critical care doc, an infectious disease specialist and maybe a nephrologist or cardiologist depending on complications. It honestly doesn’t matter what your local dermatologist, allergist, podiatrist, dentist or chiropractor thinks they know about Covid. That’s one of the most frustrating things that I have seen through this is these types of guys vocalizing random narratives that have not a clue. Just because they have an MD or DO behind their name or call themselves a “doctor” doesn’t mean that their opinion is as valuable as mine in this circumstance. Just like I would not volunteer my opinion in their area of expertise. Confirmation bias exists and people seek out opinions to align with their belief and do not understand the inner workings of what is really happening in this circumstance.
 
The thing is, you shouldn’t speak to a broad array of specialties regarding COVID patients. Most COVID admissions will only see 4-5 types of doctors during their stay. Usually an ER doc, a hospitalist, a pulmonary/critical care doc, an infectious disease specialist and maybe a nephrologist or cardiologist depending on complications. It honestly doesn’t matter what your local dermatologist, allergist, podiatrist, dentist or chiropractor thinks they know about Covid. That’s one of the most frustrating things that I have seen through this is these types of guys vocalizing random narratives that have not a clue. Just because they have an MD or DO behind their name or call themselves a “doctor” doesn’t mean that their opinion is as valuable as mine in this circumstance. Just like I would not volunteer my opinion in their area of expertise. Confirmation bias exists and people seek out opinions to align with their belief and do not understand the inner workings of what is really happening in this circumstance.

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The thing is, you shouldn’t speak to a broad array of specialties regarding COVID patients. Most COVID admissions will only see 4-5 types of doctors during their stay. Usually an ER doc, a hospitalist, a pulmonary/critical care doc, an infectious disease specialist and maybe a nephrologist or cardiologist depending on complications. It honestly doesn’t matter what your local dermatologist, allergist, podiatrist, dentist or chiropractor thinks they know about Covid. That’s one of the most frustrating things that I have seen through this is these types of guys vocalizing random narratives that have not a clue. Just because they have an MD or DO behind their name or call themselves a “doctor” doesn’t mean that their opinion is as valuable as mine in this circumstance. Just like I would not volunteer my opinion in their area of expertise. Confirmation bias exists and people seek out opinions to align with their belief.

You are correct, but I when I said "a broad range", I didn't say that they had all of the specialties that you named. I meant in relevance to the topic, which as I stated, was the "pandemic", not Covid patients, (so it was NOT a lot of unqualified doctors yammering on things outside of their specialties as you'd assumed). That is exactly the type of flaw/weakness/concern that I frequently point out, so I certainly hope that I wouldn't fall into the same trap. They were giving general opinions on the approach to managing the pandemic etc., and as such it was interesting to hear their opinions.

It's clear that most were likely mild contrarians, and there's no doubt that there may have been somewhat of an agenda, (hopefully, just to get some alternate opinions out that the public normally wouldn't get to hear given the way things are being suppressed and censored during this pandemic). When I'm collecting data, I'll wade in and get data from all available perspectives, and then I'll sort through it and discard the rubbish and trash. I trust that I know how to "eat the meat, and spit out the fat", while avoiding throwing out the baby with the bath water too. The LAST thing I do is blindly seek out one-sided information to set my self up for a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts. I actually do exactly the opposite, ensuring that I've gotten information from as many reasonable perspectives as possible.

Lastly, you are correct. Confirmation bias is indeed rife. In science, in Covid, and in many other things, but it DEFINITELY works in BOTH directions. That's exactly what I'm protesting. One-sided, biased propaganda. I assure you that I don't approach things that way, and there's practically no chance I'd fall into that trap.
 
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Stomp, if it makes you have a day in your life where you consider yourself a "winner", then consider me "owned". You won an internet pissing match. You da man.

Back on an important topic. I thought you didn't like anecdotal evidence, or is it just that you flip-flop and are extremely hypocritical whenever something fits your chosen narrative. I don't think that's the best way to operate. I also wish that you could grasp what hanging your hat COMPLETELY on such a small data point does, (i.e. the flaws in that approach), but you just don't seem to understand.
What are you babbling about? All of these stats in healthcare workers include everybody that works there. It’s not anecdotal.
 
99% of our physicians are vaccinated. 96% of our nurses. It’s a pretty large system with a couple hundred physicians.
I know. I’m sick of these idiots including media insinuating healthcare workers know something others don’t and morons saying doctors and nurses only get it due to mandates. Most mandates happened in the last couple of months from what I’ve read.
 
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