Question for Covid doubters (non-political)

[A2NCtiger]

Well what's your answer? Despite those measures, COVID cases soared. It either spreads way more easily than the flu or... what's the alternative? I don't really get the flu numbers as I've said earlier in the thread. It makes sense to me that they are down, but I wouldn't have expected them this low. Seems like what we are doing has worked well for the flu. Is it the whole story? Probably not. Nothing is that simple. But it's pretty logical that congregating less and the other measures we're taking would make spread of the flu decrease. To what extent, I don't know.

It’s called masks and distance do not work. Period. If it did numbers would have been in drastic decline. No matter the virus. I’ve traveled all over this country through this entire thing with my job, I was on airplanes back when it was literally me and the flight attendants and nobody else on board. Never got sick, didn’t wear a mask half the time either if I wasn’t forced to. The numbers are totally blown out of proportion and inflated. I know this because I’ve spoken with many physicians and staff around the country that said point blank they get major kickbacks from the government for claiming Covid related death. No matter what the death was. If they had a positive test, they were claiming Covid deaths. That’s fact. No telling what the real numbers actually are. But the government or one side of it and the media side got what they wanted and that’s to instill fear amongst the people so they can easily control them. Only problem is not all of us are ignorant sheep

 

[reely989]

It’s called masks and distance do not work. Period. If it did numbers would have been in drastic decline. No matter the virus. I’ve traveled all over this country through this entire thing with my job, I was on airplanes back when it was literally me and the flight attendants and nobody else on board. Never got sick, didn’t wear a mask half the time either if I wasn’t forced to. The numbers are totally blown out of proportion and inflated. I know this because I’ve spoken with many physicians and staff around the country that said point blank they get major kickbacks from the government for claiming Covid related death. No matter what the death was. If they had a positive test, they were claiming Covid deaths. That’s fact. No telling what the real numbers actually are. But the government or one side of it and the media side got what they wanted and that’s to instill fear amongst the people so they can easily control them. Only problem is not all of us are ignorant sheep

So how do you think a virus spreads? Even ignoring whatever you are claiming happened in regards to numbers. Unless you think a virus spreads magically then I don't see how you'd say distancing, small crowds, masks, etc don't decrease transmission. It's interesting that you imply I'm a sheep. I'd say at the least you are as much of a sheep as I am. You just blindly follow the opposite opinion.

 

[Big Blue]

Thank you for raising that. Mortality rate uses total population figures. I was using case fatality rate. In other words, rate of death if you catch it. I concede that COVID is “more” deadly than the flu if you don’t correct for the comorbidity factor and the fact that we didn’t understand this virus - at all - in the beginning. Nobody knew how to detect or treat this virus in the beginning so it was even more deadly. However, I get triggered by those that get stuck in March 2020 and quote stats to bring fear or disbelief (most of the press on both sides). Sorry to ramble but my main point was that if you have a 99.93% chance to survive versus a 99.97% chance to survive don’t abuse that difference to just scare those that are 50 and younger without diabetes, cancer or severe obesity.

Even if we compare COVID and the flu on a deaths per population basis, COVID is between 10 and 100 times deadlier, right? I'm not sure most people should be particularly afraid of COVID. I'm not even sure that the measures we have taken were all necessary. They have had so many impacts, even deadly ones, that will be felt by our society for a long time to come. There seems little doubt that we could have taken different and better approaches to the virus, but that is in hindsight. However, there is simply no minimizing a virus that has killed over a half million people. There is no comparison with the flu. It has been at least ten times as deadly even with all the efforts we have made.

 

[PocketWatch]

I just want to know when we are going to start to see less people on the road from all these deaths. So far I see the same amount of people and traffic on the road.

lol

 

[Big Blue]

So how do you think a virus spreads? Even ignoring whatever you are claiming happened in regards to numbers. Unless you think a virus spreads magically then I don't see how you'd say distancing, small crowds, masks, etc don't decrease transmission. It's interesting that you imply I'm a sheep. I'd say at the least you are as much of a sheep as I am. You just blindly follow the opposite opinion.

Yeah, this is the part I simply cannot understand on the part of the anti-maskers. Wearing a mask is basically no different than a more permanent version of covering your cough or sneeze, which everybody in our society used to believe helped prevent the spread of colds and flu.

 

[mercedes2]

Even if we compare COVID and the flu on a deaths per population basis, COVID is between 10 and 100 times deadlier, right? I'm not sure most people should be particularly afraid of COVID. I'm not even sure that the measures we have taken were all necessary. They have had so many impacts, even deadly ones, that will be felt by our society for a long time to come. There seems little doubt that we could have taken different and better approaches to the virus, but that is in hindsight. However, there is simply no minimizing a virus that has killed over a half million people. There is no comparison with the flu. It has been at least ten times as deadly even with all the efforts we have made.

Yes, based on mortality rate it’s around 10 times, less if you don’t pick a low Flu death year, for that 50 and younger group but that doesn’t correct for both comorbidity nor are you giving effect to the learning curve we’ve been through. Flu numbers benefit from years of learning and vaccines. However, we can’t quote that out of context - they are both still very very low mortality rates (or case fatality rates) and my main point is that it is now even closer to each other.

Comparisons to the Flu, to SARS, to MERS are all fair and done by the professionals because they are all respiratory viruses. Comparisons to the Flu isn’t minimizing anything.

 

[Jim in Scranton]

Yeah, this is the part I simply cannot understand on the part of the anti-maskers. Wearing a mask is basically no different than a more permanent version of covering your cough or sneeze, which everybody in our society used to believe helped prevent the spread of colds and flu.

So how do you reconcile the fact that there is virtually no difference in infection rates between places that have hard mask mandates and places that have no mask mandates?

The question isn't whether masks work, it's whether the useless bedazzled face diapers that people are wearing work. Bottom line, they don't.

 

[Big Blue]

Yes, based on mortality rate it’s around 10 times, less if you don’t pick a low Flu death year, for that 50 and younger group but that doesn’t correct for both comorbidity nor are you giving effect to the learning curve we’ve been through. Flu numbers benefit from years of learning and vaccines. However, we can’t quote that out of context - they are both still very very low mortality rates (or case fatality rates) and my main point is that it is now even closer to each other.

Comparisons to the Flu, to SARS, to MERS are all fair and done by the professionals because they are all respiratory viruses. Comparisons to the Flu isn’t minimizing anything.

Really, none of that matters too much. Comorbidities exist. They exist for the flu as well. Just because America being unhealthy contributes to the number of deaths doesn't change the deaths. The years of learning and vaccines aren't too relevant for the same reason. When we encountered this virus, there was no vaccine and we knew nothing. Over the next year or two, COVID will (or should unless a bunch of our gubment and corporate overlords try to use it for personal political gain) become no more interesting or relevant to us than the flu was prior to COVID. Now that there are vaccines that are widely available, this thing needs to go away as an issue. We are about six weeks away from the point where anybody dying from this thing is really bad luck or their own fault. Also, while not everyone who compares COVID to the flu (i.e. medical professional) is minimizing it, most people doing it on the bunker are doing it exactly for that reason.

 

[Big Blue]

So how do you reconcile the fact that there is virtually no difference in infection rates between places that have hard mask mandates and places that have no mask mandates?

The question isn't whether masks work, it's whether the useless bedazzled face diapers that people are wearing work. Bottom line, they don't.

The "useless bedazzled face diapers" are exactly what I am referring to when I mention covering coughs and sneezes. Do you consider the masks people are wearing to be less effective at covering a cough or sneeze than someone's hand or shirt sleeve?

As far as the mask mandates go, where have there been no mask mandates? Is there really a way for us to compare apples to apples on masks vs no masks? I haven't seen any studies of that. I'm just not sure how masking and distancing and hand-washing would not work. What mechanism are you proposing for the spread of the virus that would make those ineffective?

 

[Stumpfan]

The "useless bedazzled face diapers" are exactly what I am referring to when I mention covering coughs and sneezes. Do you consider the masks people are wearing to be less effective at covering a cough or sneeze than someone's hand or shirt sleeve?

As far as the mask mandates go, where have there been no mask mandates? Is there really a way for us to compare apples to apples on masks vs no masks? I haven't seen any studies of that. I'm just not sure how masking and distancing and hand-washing would not work. What mechanism are you proposing for the spread of the virus that would make those ineffective?

There is no way to compare states since they are all different. Also, the virus spreads in prolonged get togethers. That includes restaurants, bars, churches, private parties, family get togethers, etc. Even if there is a mask mandate, you don’t wear them while eating or drinking in bars and restaurants. You don’t wear them at parties. You don’t wear them in large family get togethers. Jim doesn’t want to understand this.

 

[Stumpfan]

So how do you reconcile the fact that there is virtually no difference in infection rates between places that have hard mask mandates and places that have no mask mandates?

The question isn't whether masks work, it's whether the useless bedazzled face diapers that people are wearing work. Bottom line, they don't.

I have tried to explain this to you but you don’t want to believe it. Covid is spread by prolonged contact with somebody. People get it at parties, restaurants, bars, family get togethers, etc. Masks aren’t worn in these situations. Masks do help if you’re in king lines in grocery stores, the post office, talking to somebody in a public place, classrooms, etc. Masks work in these situations but that’s not how most of Covid is spread. All you have to do is look at countries with universal mask use or even schools with universal mask use to see they work.

 

[Jim in Scranton]

The "useless bedazzled face diapers" are exactly what I am referring to when I mention covering coughs and sneezes. Do you consider the masks people are wearing to be less effective at covering a cough or sneeze than someone's hand or shirt sleeve?

As far as the mask mandates go, where have there been no mask mandates? Is there really a way for us to compare apples to apples on masks vs no masks? I haven't seen any studies of that. I'm just not sure how masking and distancing and hand-washing would not work. What mechanism are you proposing for the spread of the virus that would make those ineffective?

Cloth face masks are equally as effective as your hand or shirt sleeve.

I literally just showed you a graph of places that have no mask mandates and places that do. Here's another one

 

[Big Blue]

Cloth face masks are equally as effective as your hand or shirt sleeve.

I literally just showed you a graph of places that have no mask mandates and places that do. Here's another one

View embedded media

You got a cite for the study or studies that produced these data?

 

[A2NCtiger]

So how do you think a virus spreads? Even ignoring whatever you are claiming happened in regards to numbers. Unless you think a virus spreads magically then I don't see how you'd say distancing, small crowds, masks, etc don't decrease transmission. It's interesting that you imply I'm a sheep. I'd say at the least you are as much of a sheep as I am. You just blindly follow the opposite opinion.

Did I directly call you a sheep? Nope. Am I claiming what happened? Nope. I simply stated what many many physicians and medical staff all across the country have told me. I’m not blindly following anything. I’m well educated and understand science and viral transmission. It’s part of my job. Believe the media if you want. No point in arguing when people don’t want to hear the facts.

 

[Jim in Scranton]

You got a cite for the study or studies that produced these data?

It’s not a study. It’s real world results.

 

[Hobbes227]

I would love to see a study on what genetically predisposes certain families to a harsh reaction to COVID.It seems that if someone in your family has a hard time with COVID others will too.My family (First cousins etc) have had three cases and all very mild.We have been lucky.I feel for the families it ravages.

 

[bo hog]

There are no COVID doubters on this board.

I never doubted covid but I certainly doubted the severity of it. I was wrong it is way worse than the flu

 

[Big Blue]

It’s not a study. It’s real world results.

Studies are real-world results. Numbers inserted in a chart may be made up stuff from a QAnon site for all we know. But here are some real-world results that should convince anyone actually interested in reality that masking does help prevent the spread of viruses. Not that this wasn't already obvious.

Efficacy of face mask in preventing respiratory virus transmission: A systematic review and meta-analysis

Conflicting recommendations exist related to whether masks have a protective effect on the spread of respiratory viruses.The Preferred Reporting Items for Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analysis (PRISMA) statement was consulted to report this systematic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Can face masks protect against COVID-19?

Face masks can help slow the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Learn about mask types, which masks to use and how to use them.

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[Jim in Scranton]

Studies are real-world results. Numbers inserted in a chart may be made up stuff from a QAnon site for all we know. But here are some real-world results that should convince anyone actually interested in reality that masking does help prevent the spread of viruses. Not that this wasn't already obvious.

Efficacy of face mask in preventing respiratory virus transmission: A systematic review and meta-analysis

Conflicting recommendations exist related to whether masks have a protective effect on the spread of respiratory viruses.The Preferred Reporting Items for Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analysis (PRISMA) statement was consulted to report this systematic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Can face masks protect against COVID-19?

Face masks can help slow the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Learn about mask types, which masks to use and how to use them.

www.mayoclinic.org

It's right there in the tweet. It's from the NYT data. I don't have a clue what a QAnon site is, so unless the NYT is one I don't think it's made up.

 

[Big Blue]

It's right there in the tweet. It's from the NYT data. I don't have a clue what a QAnon site is, so unless the NYT is one I don't think it's made up.

I would not be at all surprised if the NYT made up something, but if the tweet has a link to the NYT data that it supposedly was displaying, I am overlooking it.

 

[PocketWatch]

It's right there in the tweet. It's from the NYT data. I don't have a clue what a QAnon site is, so unless the NYT is one I don't think it's made up.

the NYT may look good compared to Q, but it has become awful.

I will thank them for letting me know a few months in advance my $4 a month subscription will be expiring. It’s worth about that.

 

[Big Blue]

the NYT may look good compared to Q, but it has become awful.

I will thank them for letting me know a few months in advance my $4 a month subscription will be expiring. It’s worth about that.

It's basically Pravda.

 

[mercedes2]

Really, none of that matters too much. Comorbidities exist. They exist for the flu as well. Just because America being unhealthy contributes to the number of deaths doesn't change the deaths. The years of learning and vaccines aren't too relevant for the same reason. When we encountered this virus, there was no vaccine and we knew nothing. Over the next year or two, COVID will (or should unless a bunch of our gubment and corporate overlords try to use it for personal political gain) become no more interesting or relevant to us than the flu was prior to COVID. Now that there are vaccines that are widely available, this thing needs to go away as an issue. We are about six weeks away from the point where anybody dying from this thing is really bad luck or their own fault. Also, while not everyone who compares COVID to the flu (i.e. medical professional) is minimizing it, most people doing it on the bunker are doing it exactly for that reason.

Reasonable post. I agree with your comments.

 

[A2NCtiger]

I never doubted covid but I certainly doubted the severity of it. I was wrong it is way worse than the flu

What about it is way worse? 99.8% of people that get it have very little to no symptoms at all. The flu virus has a much higher death rate and also much more greatly affects young adults and kids. The flu also has had multiple strain vaccines out for years and years now and it still kills roughly 20k people a year of all ages, symptoms of all those infected are also much worse than the majority of Covid. You can say Covid had mor people sick in a year, but I’d argue it was a brand new viral strain that nobody had ever seen or knew about. So you can’t really compare numbers per say. 5 years from now sure, compare the numbers against a yearly flu population and you’d have better data.

 

[OrigAUgirl]

Cloth face masks are equally as effective as your hand or shirt sleeve.

I literally just showed you a graph of places that have no mask mandates and places that do. Here's another one

View embedded media

So measuring spread in a no mask state like Idaho (super low population density) is comparable to a mask-wearing state like New York (super high population density?). Have you corrected for that...can you show me where your graph has? Or are you saying that wouldn't matter?

 

[OrigAUgirl]

Did I directly call you a sheep? Nope. Am I claiming what happened? Nope. I simply stated what many many physicians and medical staff all across the country have told me. I’m not blindly following anything. I’m well educated and understand science and viral transmission. It’s part of my job. Believe the media if you want. No point in arguing when people don’t want to hear the facts.

Interesting, we have multiple doctors here on the bunker that dispute what you say. I also work in the medical industry and WE ARE TAKING it seriously. So all these 'many many physician and medical staff' tell you what? That 'it's BS' or 'it's just like flu', or' masks don't help? or 'it's being abused for power and money' or 'doctors are lying about cause of death on death certificates?' Please be specific. So, tell us, what is it you do for a living 'not a dude'? I wonder if you and I are in the same field...

 

[DM8]

Cloth face masks are equally as effective as your hand or shirt sleeve.

I literally just showed you a graph of places that have no mask mandates and places that do. Here's another one

View embedded media

Just like your claim that COVID was less deadly than the flu, you have made this anti-mask argument dozens of times. It was destroyed by Mr. Hickory when he pointed out that mask use is the reason that he and every other healthcare worker in our country treating COVID patients on a daily basis has not been infected. As @Big Blue pointed out, there have been numerous studies completed which prove masks are an effective measure at preventing the spread of COVID. It is embarrassing that you persist in making such an easily debunked argument.

The only thing your graphs tend to indicate are that anti-mask imbeciles like you have been effective at convincing people masks are pointless and thus they have either not worn them or worn them improperly to the point they were ineffective. They are also a good reminder that our country failed to take the steps necessary to make the best types of masks, which are 90%+ effective, available to all Americans last summer. Had everyone had access to the most effective masks by this past fall and there was no anti-mask movement led by fools like you, countless lives could have been saved. Congratulations on your successful efforts to make this crisis worse than it otherwise would have been had everyone operated under the reality that COVID is drastically more deadly than the flu and thus mask use and other precautions were warranted.

 

[bo hog]

What about it is way worse? 99.8% of people that get it have very little to no symptoms at all. The flu virus has a much higher death rate and also much more greatly affects young adults and kids. The flu also has had multiple strain vaccines out for years and years now and it still kills roughly 20k people a year of all ages, symptoms of all those infected are also much worse than the majority of Covid. You can say Covid had mor people sick in a year, but I’d argue it was a brand new viral strain that nobody had ever seen or knew about. So you can’t really compare numbers per say. 5 years from now sure, compare the numbers against a yearly flu population and you’d have better data.

Because I live in a town of 6000 people and I personally know 15 people who have died from covid. Four of those people were 53 or younger. I have never known anyone who died from the flu!

 

[A2NCtiger]

Interesting, we have multiple doctors here on the bunker that dispute what you say. I also work in the medical industry and WE ARE TAKING it seriously. So all these 'many many physician and medical staff' tell you what? That 'it's BS' or 'it's just like flu', or' masks don't help? or 'it's being abused for power and money' or 'doctors are lying about cause of death on death certificates?' Please be specific. So, tell us, what is it you do for a living 'not a dude'? I wonder if you and I are in the same field...

Numbers are vastly inflated, critical care beds and vents are not being used as much as reported in a lot of areas, false positive tests aren’t being reported properly and left as positive tests. Antibody tests are being added as positive even though they are only about 50% accurate. Mask use and distancing has not prevented anything(mostly because people still touch their Masks and then touch surfaces everywhere). I’m a medical device rep for the eastern US territory and

 

[reely989]

Numbers are vastly inflated, critical care beds and vents are not being used as much as reported in a lot of areas, false positive tests aren’t being reported properly and left as positive tests. Antibody tests are being added as positive even though they are only about 50% accurate. Mask use and distancing has not prevented anything(mostly because people still touch their Masks and then touch surfaces everywhere). I’m a medical device rep for the eastern US territory and

I don't think anyone would argue that the numbers are totally accurate. But to what to l degree do you think they are wrong? The death total is still massive even if you assume 10 to 20 percent error which is just not the case. And that's assuming every error being falsely associated with covid. And distancing and masks prevent transmission. You can argue to what degree all you want but like I mentioned earlier, these viruses aren't magic. I speak with physicians every day and I don't think I've encountered one that downplayed the numbers or the severity.

 

[OrigAUgirl]

Numbers are vastly inflated, critical care beds and vents are not being used as much as reported in a lot of areas, false positive tests aren’t being reported properly and left as positive tests. Antibody tests are being added as positive even though they are only about 50% accurate. Mask use and distancing has not prevented anything(mostly because people still touch their Masks and then touch surfaces everywhere). I’m a medical device rep for the eastern US territory and

oh, thank goodness...a device rep. Nevermind. A doctor told you 'mask use and distancing has not prevented anything' . Really? I'd love to meet that doctor. Not saying they don't exist, but they have got some ideas much different than most of their colleagues. Masks are how doctors have been able to continue to work. I'm sure they are how you have been able to continue working as well. I'm sure the antibody test info is probably correct. However, with molecular tests, False positives don't worry us as much (other than the fact that people that need it don't get treatment) because false negatives also happen and more frequently. Up to 20% of the time. False negatives outweigh false positives and you are just repeating talking points that are not based in fact concerning the primary test type in use. No way the numbers are vastly inflated. I don't know who is reporting incorrectly on critical care beds and vent usage that is lying. I do know the two most respected pulmonologists at UAB will tell you with a quickness that this disease has done catastrophic damage like nothing they have ever seen in their careers. They pray daily we get it under control.

 

[Jim in Scranton]

Studies are real-world results. Numbers inserted in a chart may be made up stuff from a QAnon site for all we know. But here are some real-world results that should convince anyone actually interested in reality that masking does help prevent the spread of viruses. Not that this wasn't already obvious.

Efficacy of face mask in preventing respiratory virus transmission: A systematic review and meta-analysis

Conflicting recommendations exist related to whether masks have a protective effect on the spread of respiratory viruses.The Preferred Reporting Items for Systematic Reviews and Meta-Analysis (PRISMA) statement was consulted to report this systematic ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Can face masks protect against COVID-19?

Face masks can help slow the spread of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19). Learn about mask types, which masks to use and how to use them.

www.mayoclinic.org

Looks like the Illinois Department of Public Health is in on the QAnon stuff too.

 

[Big Blue]

Looks like the Illinois Department of Public Health is in on the QAnon stuff too.

Again, nobody is reasonably claiming that cloth or surgical facemasks completely prevent viruses from being transmitted. However, it is a simple fact that they act as a barrier and limit virus-containing droplets from being spread into the air and thus limit transmissibility of viruses contained in them. Aside from being blatantly obvious, the studies I previously cited also show this. It explains why doctors, nurses, and other healthcare workers wear surgical masks. The bottom line is that people who claim that masking has no effect on slowing viral transmission are lying or delusional. This includes the IDPH if that is what they are actually claiming in the slide presentation in that pic, which I doubt.

 

[Jim in Scranton]

It explains why doctors, nurses, and other healthcare workers wear surgical masks

Lol, they only wear masks in surgical settings. They don't wear them to stop the spread of respiratory viruses. The patient isn't wearing a mask anyway.