Had the South won the Civil War.. would places still have Grant, Sherman, & Lincoln statues in 2020?

PocketWatch

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Hell no. They would shoot their neighbors but when the North came to shoot their neighbors they said hell no. Remember the army was mostly union forces at the time of the split and the South was full of farmers.
Which made it an easy choice to choose adventure and war as opposed to remaining on the farm.
 
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Hornswoggle

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I lean no.
no. I can't understand why traitors are glorified. You don't see statues of Benedict Arnold in D.C. The rich landowners in the south were able to sucker the poor slobs in the south to fight a war against their own country in order to be able to keep slaves as their cheap labor force which is why I don't understand why the commanders from the south would be deified by their ancestors.
 

SigBitty

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It's not unlike the Taliban removing all signs of history they do not like or agree with. History is not always pretty, and it should make us uncomfortable at times, but if those in fashion today can blot all of what they hate today, what is next? If we as a society are so fragile that words and ideas and symbols cause us to cower, they we are doomed to repeat history. And dang sure won't be able to deal with present reality
Removing confederate monuments is a far cry from scrubbing history of the civil war and it’s causes.
 

aler

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no. I can't understand why traitors are glorified. You don't see statues of Benedict Arnold in D.C. The rich landowners in the south were able to sucker the poor slobs in the south to fight a war against their own country in order to be able to keep slaves as their cheap labor force which is why I don't understand why the commanders from the south would be deified by their ancestors.
they tried to lawfully secede
 

Aliens

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Had the South won they would have simply won independence and not control of the country. So yeah, the North would have their own statues all over their states.
 

PocketWatch

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no. I can't understand why traitors are glorified. You don't see statues of Benedict Arnold in D.C. The rich landowners in the south were able to sucker the poor slobs in the south to fight a war against their own country in order to be able to keep slaves as their cheap labor force which is why I don't understand why the commanders from the south would be deified by their ancestors.
They weren’t suckered. Young adult males tend to jump at the chance for travel, adventure, war, rise in stature (for serving), etc. especially when they’re stuck on small farms doing literal back breaking work.

That’s a tale as old as time.
 

kenews

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Which made it an easy choice to choose adventure and war as opposed to remaining on the farm.
A lot only lasted a little time after they showed up. They could not quite figure out why they just couldn't shoot people and go home for dinner. This war thing sucks.
 

PocketWatch

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A lot only lasted a little time after they showed up. They could not quite figure out why they just couldn't shoot people and go home for dinner. This war thing sucks.
A lot of deserters in the American Revolution and war of 1812 as well. Kind of a wonder we won.....well, we didn’t win 1812 but didn’t lose it either.
 
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Tigerbass2

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Imagine walking into a park and seeing a monument for those who fought to keep your people enslaved.
I cannot possibly do that, nor will I ever attempt to suggest that’s something I should comprehend. My responsibility is to attempt to understand the wrongs of the past to all and make sure my actions speak to a character that’s trying to make better choices for all walks of human life. Because we can’t fully understand those who lived the events of history, the best we can do is have compassion for all and committed to making our own positive chapter in history. I hope the generations after me will see my faults and remove them from their character, leaving a better chapter than mine.

As to my comment above, I’m suggesting that today’s generation cannot understand the sacrifices made by all, no matter the war, no matter the era. I do not like, nor understand the enemies of our country, however, I can respect a commitment to die for your beliefs. It’s easy to sit here and make comments from our home on a phone or computer. Those who suggest those who give all to protect and or serve others are on the same level as kids getting a participation trophy are cowards of the highest order.
Learn to be better, have compassion to those you can and cannot relate to, understand that building a better future often requires letting go of past transgressions. If we only walk forward with those who have a flawless past the road will be lonely as you will not find a hand to hold.

We don’t have to fully understand others before we can help each other be better.
 

NashTiger in WilCo

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Imagine walking into a park and seeing a monument for those who fought to keep your people enslaved.
Here is one right here



I've never really thought about how much I should hate the statue before now, I guess because he didn't hurt my parents or grandparents or any of my relatives I ever knew
 

NashTiger in WilCo

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Go up to any black community and tell them the same thing.
Wat? I'm telling you. You just asked me to imagine seeing a monument in a park of someone who fought to keep my people enslaved. I did, and realized I wasn't outraged enough. I picked the one guy with lots of statues that did the original enslaving. I didn't look for any statues of Ragnar, Bjorn Ironsides, or Ivar the Boneless, or any of the Berber Caliphs. Much less any of the pre-Magna Carta Kings of England.

Here is Cnut, the "Great", the Danish conquerer/usurper

 

granddaddy28

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Imagine walking into a park and seeing a monument for those who fought to keep your people enslaved.
I agree, We had a Bedford Forest statue in the middle of the Memphis Medical district until the mayor innovated a unique solution that sold the park For a buck and removed the statue. Incidentally, Forest and Mrs Forest were interred beneath the statue.

Forest was a brilliant cavalryman, but he was also made his fortunate brokering slaves, then led the KKK. I think somewhere there is an appropriate place to ensure we never forget people like Forest. However, that place is not in a public park in a city that is 65% African American.
 

granddaddy28

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I am not sure the north would have had the stomach if it went a little more sour at a couple of battles. Remember this was a war about secession with unlawful taxes as the south rallying cry and control from the north. The north may have just said let them go.
Not sure the North had the stomach? They fought for 4 years and had casualties of 600,000-700,000. That indicates a lot of stomach to fight, and Lincoln would never have given up.
 
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AUBK

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Based on what both sides had to endure, I would be fine if there were a lot more memorials for leaders from both sides. I doubt many that complain about this topic would have lasted a day fighting the battles they had to fight. Teenagers removed from their families knowing they would likely never see them again. It takes a tough SOB to walk that line, no matter what color your uniform.

I guess I also fail to see how either side of this blood shed war compares to kids getting trophies.

No one has a problem with us respecting those who put their lives on the line in Vietnam. Again, most of those that pretend the outcome in Vietnam is the same as a kid getting a trophy would never have the sack to step off a chopper in those same conditions.

You don’t have to agree with the purpose to respect those who offered to put their life on the line.
Stupid leaders are stupid.
 

NashTiger in WilCo

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Not sure the North had the stomach? They fought for 4 years and had casualties of 600,000-700,000. That indicates a lot of stomach to fight, and Lincoln would never have given up.
Lincoln had to shut down newspapers and imprison publishers, and still would not have won re-election if the Confederates had gotten to the high ground at Gettysburg first. The public was running out of the wil" to fight.
Oh, and there were massive draft riots because the entire enterprise rested on using immigrants conscripted as they got off the boat in NY harbor as cannon fodder to overwhelm and wear down the CSA with numbers
 

homanga

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Many statues were built in the 50s and 60s in protest of segregation. Also when southern states changed their state flags to have stars and bars. I have always thought those were wrong and should come down.

Those that are 150 years old are different and should be thought out. Lee and Jackson stay. Forrest gets bulldozed.
 
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kenews

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A lot of deserters in the American Revolution and war of 1812 as well. Kind of a wonder we won.....well, we didn’t win 1812 but didn’t lose it either.
Didn't have a lot to fight for like we did after the Civil War.
 

kenews

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Not sure the North had the stomach? They fought for 4 years and had casualties of 600,000-700,000. That indicates a lot of stomach to fight, and Lincoln would never have given up.
Not at the beginning especially when the South was winning. They have had numerous conversations about stopping it early, I am sure the South did as well. The thing was once you got past the initial fighting both sides became incredibly stubborn and it was fortunate that Lee surrendered or we might have had guerrilla warfare for years in the South. As is was the North took numerous liberties that were not forgotten in the South for a long period.
 

PocketWatch

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Many statues were built in the 50s and 60s in protest of segregation. Also when southern states changed their state flags to have stars and bars. I have always thought those were wrong and should come down.

Those that are 150 years old are different and should be thought out. Lee and Jackson stay. Forrest gets bulldozed.
A lot of memorials to soldiers of the war weren’t built until a number of years after the war. Hell, it was a bit of a struggle to even bury the soldiers! (Not many men to even do it, so became a job that women did.) Thing was there was no money when the war ended. That’s why a lot of cemetery markers have errors - they weren’t placed until a number of years later.

Monuments to soldiers should remain as a general rule. (Some could be moved, but most shouldn’t be.) It’s answering the call to serve that is being honored, not the cause. (Or honoring those who answered the call to serve.) It’s not the fault of 18 year olds that their leaders were wrong. Just as Iraq War vets should and are honored today.

A lot of the ones to the generals tend to more idealize a movement to win a different “war”, and serve that purpose instead of honoring the people the statues represent. (I’m not arguing one way or another about whether said people should be honored, but saying that wasn’t their purpose so it’s irrelevant.) While they should not be destroyed (they’re art after all), these should be moved to a more appropriate location like a museum or an outdoor park adjacent to a museum or something. (Maybe 1% or 2% shouldn’t be moved for some specific reason or context, but almost all should be, if not all.)
 

granddaddy28

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Lincoln had to shut down newspapers and imprison publishers, and still would not have won re-election if the Confederates had gotten to the high ground at Gettysburg first. The public was running out of the wil" to fight.
Oh, and there were massive draft riots because the entire enterprise rested on using immigrants conscripted as they got off the boat in NY harbor as cannon fodder to overwhelm and wear down the CSA with numbers
If, If, if...after every if the north held the superior manpower, industry and leadership and the south didn’t. The lost cause was always lost.
 

ajpitts

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Imagine walking into a park and seeing a monument for those who fought to keep your people enslaved.
Interesting book I picked up a long time ago titled, The Gray and the Black. This was about the public debate during on whether or not to free slaves. There were strong opinions on both sides. An Alabama county is named for Patrick Cleburne, a division commander who made a formal proposal for this to the government in Richmond. I remember a petition by soldiers from Troy, Auburn and Eufaula published in a newspaper that they would be willing for former slaves to fight alongside them.

It didn’t happen, but it’s interesting to speculate on what might’ve been. Point here is that, forced to make a choice, a lot of Southerners would have been willing to give up slavery in order to gain independence.
 

Hornacious

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Apparently the protesters are offended by this civil war memorial too. Who can hate the Glory monument?

 
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Big Blue

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Many statues were built in the 50s and 60s in protest of segregation. Also when southern states changed their state flags to have stars and bars. I have always thought those were wrong and should come down.

Those that are 150 years old are different and should be thought out. Lee and Jackson stay. Forrest gets bulldozed.
Yep. This is my beef with those who support some of the statues, monuments, and flags. It’s hard to honestly claim those things aren’t racist when they were erected specifically to symbolize and support racism. Some of the ones that existed previously are different.
 
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Eagle

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Imagine walking into a park and seeing a monument for those who fought to keep your people enslaved.
Imagine walking through Seattle and seeing a statue of lenin who murdered hundreds of millions and sought to have everyone enslaved. Wonder what happens if somebody is offended by that and goes and tries to tear it down. You support them because it’s offensive?

and actually if you understand many of the south wasn’t about slavery to them, 99% of them did not have nor benefit from slaves. Certainly to some of those in power it was, but for the grunt on the ground, he was just defending his state and community, which back then most people had a much higher allegiance to.

You can have both, you can hate slavery and still honor those who are fighting to defend their families and communities.
 

Eagle

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no. I can't understand why traitors are glorified. You don't see statues of Benedict Arnold in D.C. The rich landowners in the south were able to sucker the poor slobs in the south to fight a war against their own country in order to be able to keep slaves as their cheap labor force which is why I don't understand why the commanders from the south would be deified by their ancestors.
they actually weren’t traitors, they were fighting against an ever encroaching government. Even the Supreme Court ruled that they were not traitors.
 

Eagle

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How very convenient for you to assume. My sincerest apologies for the confederate leaders you worship so dearly.
Again you maintain your impressive track record for error. I don’t worship any of them or of the north either, I do respect men on both sides and the sacrifices they made, and nothing was assumed, you highlighted it and called me an idiot which a rational person would take as your disapproval. So that’s a no. If you can’t answer intelligently and reasonably, don’t object when people take your idiotic statements and hold you accountable for them.
 

Eagle

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Answer intelligently? Oh I wasn’t aware we were doing that since we were using the existence of a single Lenin statue in Seattle to justify the existence of hundreds of monuments littered throughout the southeast.
ahhhhhhh, i get it now. Only quantity matters, not any underlying principle. That’s pretty much exactly what I expected of you.
 

Eagle

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You are literally too stupid to hold any kind of discussion with. Go protect your precious confederate monuments, hopefully you won’t catch a bullet with your teeth.
lol. Perfect.
 

Eagle

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One who relates a Lenin Statue to confederate monuments really shouldn’t speak about others’ intelligence.
doesn’t surprise me you want the statue of Lenin and protected and you think it’s morally superior to anything confederate.

Not. Shocked.
 

Eagle

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Look at you making shite up. They breed you folks extra stupid down south.
oh. Then you want the statue of lenin torn down as well because it offends some people. Let me be sure now, is that right? Or does there need to be more than one in order to make it offensive enough to be torn down?

look at me, trying to help you clarify your thoughts and manners. I’m just a damn Amy Vanderbilt here.