Changing Military Base Names

Thrill

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What’s everyone’s thoughts? I don’t know if naming bases after Confederate Generals was done to build bridges with the South or in recognition of the generals military acumen, but why keep them now? I’d rename them after soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who served at the bases and later gave their lives in service to their country. Men like Gary Gordon, Randy Shugart, Michael Monsoor, John Chapman, and Jason Dunham. Why name them after men who fought the United States Military?
 
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vanceme

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Same and same. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be changed now that I’m grown up and understand how insane it is to name a US military base after someone who fought AGAINST the US.
Just make up a different person with the same name and that you like and leave it alone. I cant imagine the shit show that would ensue if they named Fort Bragg, Fort Clinton.
 

mackenzie

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Just make up a different person with the same name and that you like and leave it alone. I cant imagine the shit show that would ensue if they named Fort Bragg, Fort Clinton.
I don't really understand people who are so freaked out about changing the name of a base or a building. First off, if you think about it, it's kind of an odd tradition anyway. It's not like I named my house when I moved into it - it's just a house. I get that you have to call a base something but pretty much everything changes over time and changes shouldn't be this terrifying to people. Second, no military bases are named after presidents or politicians, they're pretty much all named after soldiers or where they're located, which is the case with most bases in foreign countries. Third, people would bitch about a name change for about 5 minutes and then they'd get over it because they'd realize it's not a big deal to change it but it is kind of a big deal to have it named after an enemy combatant.
 

vanceme

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I don't really understand people who are so freaked out about changing the name of a base or a building. First off, if you think about it, it's kind of an odd tradition anyway. It's not like I named my house when I moved into it - it's just a house. I get that you have to call a base something but pretty much everything changes over time and changes shouldn't be this terrifying to people. Second, no military bases are named after presidents or politicians, they're pretty much all named after soldiers or where they're located, which is the case with most bases in foreign countries. Third, people would bitch about a name change for about 5 minutes and then they'd get over it because they'd realize it's not a big deal to change it but it is kind of a big deal to have it named after an enemy combatant.
Umm, I will go ahead and assume you didn't serve as an Airborne soldier at Fort Bragg.

To help you understand better though, I actually don't know crap about who ever that base is named after but I know my base and I know its heritage in terms of the units that have served there. Changing its name is to dishonor the men and women who have trained, fought and died there. Military people tend to honor the battle and the people who fought and died on both sides. So when I jumped onto the Normandy drop zone it was an honor relative to the sacrifices all soldiers made not just a reminder of a horrible battle where over 425,000 Allied and German troops were killed, wounded or were missing.

Also I am assuming you are making some veiled comment about the civil war with naming bases after enemy combatants. I can tell you I would be honored to serve on a base that is named after anyone that was a great soldier and there are lots of those in this world that the US sees as the enemy.

I hope this gave you some perspective next time you want to talk about changing names of military bases.
 

mackenzie

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Umm, I will go ahead and assume you didn't serve as an Airborne soldier at Fort Bragg.

To help you understand better though, I actually don't know crap about who ever that base is named after but I know my base and I know its heritage in terms of the units that have served there. Changing its name is to dishonor the men and women who have trained, fought and died there. Military people tend to honor the battle and the people who fought and died on both sides. So when I jumped onto the Normandy drop zone it was an honor relative to the sacrifices all soldiers made not just a reminder of a horrible battle where over 425,000 Allied and German troops were killed, wounded or were missing.

Also I am assuming you are making some veiled comment about the civil war with naming bases after enemy combatants. I can tell you I would be honored to serve on a base that is named after anyone that was a great soldier and there are lots of those in this world that the US sees as the enemy.

I hope this gave you some perspective next time you want to talk about changing names of military bases.
I love lectures from people who don't know shit about me. I have plenty of perspective. I grew up on military bases. I've discussed this with my father who served in Vietnam and was 30 years enlisted in the military and lost a brother in Vietnam. His dad, my grandfather, fought in the Pacific in WWII and even today at 99 wakes up from nightmares over his service time. I understand the military and military life. And what I know from him is that he could give two craps about the names of the bases he served on over the course of his long career. None of his pride or honor or sacrifice was tied up in the name of a military base but rather with the people he served with and the work they did. And to your own admission, you didn't even know why Bragg was called Bragg, so changing its name won't change its heritage.

I won't dishonor your service but I also do not believe it is a dishonor to the people who died in conflicts to change the name of a military base any more than it is a dishonor to close military bases which the military does all the time. The heritage of the base, the people who trained there and the things they went on to accomplish isn't changed by changing the name of the base - the base still exists, their service still exists. My father was stationed at Ft. McClellan in Anniston for years, half a million soldiers were trained there for service in WWII. It was the home of the Military Police from its inception - that base is gone now. Are any of those soldiers and MP's dishonored because the base was closed. If they change the name of Bragg to Patton, there will be a generation of people who still refer to it as Bragg before most folks move on an adopt the new name and none of the valor of your service or others who trained there will be lost or diminished by the change.

Lastly, my apologies for not being clearer, it wasn't meant as a veiled comment about Confederate Generals, it was meant to be an outright condemnation. Can soldiers in a bad cause behave honorably or fight effectively, absolutely. That was displayed all over Europe and Africa during WWII but I don't suspect we'll be naming bases after Rommel or Manstein. I don't believe the Confederacy should be or deserves to be memorialized and the time for appeasement of the south for slave owners and traitors to the US is well past. Thanks for your service but I don't need your lectures about the perspective of military life and what it means to serve.
 

vanceme

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I love lectures from people who don't know shit about me. I have plenty of perspective. I grew up on military bases. I've discussed this with my father who served in Vietnam and was 30 years enlisted in the military and lost a brother in Vietnam. His dad, my grandfather, fought in the Pacific in WWII and even today at 99 wakes up from nightmares over his service time. I understand the military and military life. And what I know from him is that he could give two craps about the names of the bases he served on over the course of his long career. None of his pride or honor or sacrifice was tied up in the name of a military base but rather with the people he served with and the work they did. And to your own admission, you didn't even know why Bragg was called Bragg, so changing its name won't change its heritage.

I won't dishonor your service but I also do not believe it is a dishonor to the people who died in conflicts to change the name of a military base any more than it is a dishonor to close military bases which the military does all the time. The heritage of the base, the people who trained there and the things they went on to accomplish isn't changed by changing the name of the base - the base still exists, their service still exists. My father was stationed at Ft. McClellan in Anniston for years, half a million soldiers were trained there for service in WWII. It was the home of the Military Police from its inception - that base is gone now. Are any of those soldiers and MP's dishonored because the base was closed. If they change the name of Bragg to Patton, there will be a generation of people who still refer to it as Bragg before most folks move on an adopt the new name and none of the valor of your service or others who trained there will be lost or diminished by the change.

Lastly, my apologies for not being clearer, it wasn't meant as a veiled comment about Confederate Generals, it was meant to be an outright condemnation. Can soldiers in a bad cause behave honorably or fight effectively, absolutely. That was displayed all over Europe and Africa during WWII but I don't suspect we'll be naming bases after Rommel or Manstein. I don't believe the Confederacy should be or deserves to be memorialized and the time for appeasement of the south for slave owners and traitors to the US is well past. Thanks for your service but I don't need your lectures about the perspective of military life and what it means to serve.
So again it is clear to me that YOU didn't serve. Thanks for the sacrifices your other family members made for our country. I see people like you as part of the issue we have these days. I talk about what it means to me and YOU discredit my words. My thoughts and words don't count because they don't fit your agenda. So go **** yourself you pretentious POS. Was that clear enough for you?
 

mackenzie

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So again it is clear to me that YOU didn't serve. Thanks for the sacrifices your other family members made for our country. I see people like you as part of the issue we have these days. I talk about what it means to me and YOU discredit my words. My thoughts and words don't count because they don't fit your agenda. So go **** yourself you pretentious POS. Was that clear enough for you?
More assumptions and now name calling. You're on a roll, vance. I didn't discredit your words, I simply gave you an alternative perspective, one that is shared by a fellow veteran. Your thoughts and feelings count but that doesn't change the inherent wrongness of a military base being named after confederate enemy combatants. As a conservative speaker likes to say, "facts don't care about your feelings." I can acknowledge your fondness for the base and sympathize with a desire for you not to see it changed, but changing it is the right thing to do. I'm not sure what "agenda" you think I have but this instance isn't about an agenda to me, it's about right and wrong. I cared about Ft. McClellan, I spent great years there, but it had to be closed. I was sad to see it go, but it was fiscally the right thing for the Military to do. This is morally and ethically the right thing for the military to do.

Military leaders have come out and said they are "open to a bipartisan discussion on the topic." The Navy and other military branches have banned the confederate flag because it is racist and not inclusive. My point wasn't that your perspective wasn't worth crediting, it was that the end result of your words - namely keeping the base names intact - is NOT creditable. It's not a credit to your service, and it's not a credit to what the US military stands for to leave these monuments or recognitions in place. So, you can either continue to discount the feelings and opinions of anyone you think doesn't deserve to have feelings or opinions on this topic because they didn't serve, or you can come up with a reasoned argument for why the bases should retain names of pro-slavery, KKK members who fought against the US military. Or you can keep calling me names if it makes you feel better, I'm not bothered either way but you haven't done anything to convince anyone that Fort Bragg should be called Fort Bragg as an honor to a pretty poor confederate general if his battle record is to be believed.
 

vanceme

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More assumptions and now name calling. You're on a roll, vance. I didn't discredit your words, I simply gave you an alternative perspective, one that is shared by a fellow veteran. Your thoughts and feelings count but that doesn't change the inherent wrongness of a military base being named after confederate enemy combatants. As a conservative speaker likes to say, "facts don't care about your feelings." I can acknowledge your fondness for the base and sympathize with a desire for you not to see it changed, but changing it is the right thing to do. I'm not sure what "agenda" you think I have but this instance isn't about an agenda to me, it's about right and wrong. I cared about Ft. McClellan, I spent great years there, but it had to be closed. I was sad to see it go, but it was fiscally the right thing for the Military to do. This is morally and ethically the right thing for the military to do.

Military leaders have come out and said they are "open to a bipartisan discussion on the topic." The Navy and other military branches have banned the confederate flag because it is racist and not inclusive. My point wasn't that your perspective wasn't worth crediting, it was that the end result of your words - namely keeping the base names intact - is NOT creditable. It's not a credit to your service, and it's not a credit to what the US military stands for to leave these monuments or recognitions in place. So, you can either continue to discount the feelings and opinions of anyone you think doesn't deserve to have feelings or opinions on this topic because they didn't serve, or you can come up with a reasoned argument for why the bases should retain names of pro-slavery, KKK members who fought against the US military. Or you can keep calling me names if it makes you feel better, I'm not bothered either way but you haven't done anything to convince anyone that Fort Bragg should be called Fort Bragg as an honor to a pretty poor confederate general if his battle record is to be believed.
You are doing a great job of making things up and discounting my words. Let me be clear. I have read your words. I have given you mine. I am pretty sure you and I will never agree on this topic.

I have seen people like you my entire life and chose to defend your rights to give me a hard time for believing what I believe. I am cool with that and wouldn't have it any other way. Although I wish you valued my opinion as much as your own I can see that isn't who you are. Enjoy your day.
 

mackenzie

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You are doing a great job of making things up and discounting my words. Let me be clear. I have read your words. I have given you mine. I am pretty sure you and I will never agree on this topic.

I have seen people like you my entire life and chose to defend your rights to give me a hard time for believing what I believe. I am cool with that and wouldn't have it any other way. Although I wish you valued my opinion as much as your own I can see that isn't who you are. Enjoy your day.
Challenge - name one thing I've "made up."

If your opinion is that Fort Bragg should remain Fort Bragg because people valued the time they spent there, and the people who are offended by the federal government honoring and memorializing former confederate soldiers should get over it, then you're right, we won't ever agree on this topic. Do I think your feelings about Fort Bragg are valid and worthy, of course. Do I think that's reason enough to ignore the connection to memorializing a confederate general who fought against the US and to defend slavery, absolutely not.

I do love, though, the self-righteousness of pointing out your choice to defend my rights. Thing is, you don't know the first thing about "people like" me because you've never seen me and you don't know me. I said something you disagreed with, gave what I hoped were reasonable arguments for why I thought the way I did, and you chose to make assumption after assumption about me because, what, I disagreed with you or I "never served in a forward area unit," Colonel Jessup, and yet the only one here who has discounted someone's right to have an opinion or called anyone names, is you. It's possible to both value someone's opinion and still disagree with it. I'm not sure you've shown the ability to do that here, I hope I have.
 

vanceme

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Challenge - name one thing I've "made up."

If your opinion is that Fort Bragg should remain Fort Bragg because people valued the time they spent there, and the people who are offended by the federal government honoring and memorializing former confederate soldiers should get over it, then you're right, we won't ever agree on this topic. Do I think your feelings about Fort Bragg are valid and worthy, of course. Do I think that's reason enough to ignore the connection to memorializing a confederate general who fought against the US and to defend slavery, absolutely not.

I do love, though, the self-righteousness of pointing out your choice to defend my rights. Thing is, you don't know the first thing about "people like" me because you've never seen me and you don't know me. I said something you disagreed with, gave what I hoped were reasonable arguments for why I thought the way I did, and you chose to make assumption after assumption about me because, what, I disagreed with you or I "never served in a forward area unit," Colonel Jessup, and yet the only one here who has discounted someone's right to have an opinion or called anyone names, is you. It's possible to both value someone's opinion and still disagree with it. I'm not sure you've shown the ability to do that here, I hope I have.
I am very happy that you have an opinion and I understand your opinion well at this point, yet you continue to ignore mine and what it is based on. That's cool though. Although I will fix one issue. I have interacted with people like you my entire life. You are correct we have never met and I am good with that as well. I suspect we would not be friends in real life.
 

mackenzie

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I am very happy that you have an opinion and I understand your opinion well at this point, yet you continue to ignore mine and what it is based on. That's cool though. Although I will fix one issue. I have interacted with people like you my entire life. You are correct we have never met and I am good with that as well. I suspect we would not be friends in real life.
Did I misstate your opinion? Maybe I am missing the point and would like to understand you better if you think I'm not understanding or ignoring your opinion.

As to your last point, I'd challenge you there, too. I bet we would get along great and enjoy having a beer together and talking AU football. We certainly wouldn't agree on everything but I bet we'd be friends. I could make you like me. War Eagle!
 

MrMcGillicutty

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Same and same. Doesn’t mean they shouldn’t be changed now that I’m grown up and understand how insane it is to name a US military base after someone who fought AGAINST the US.
I am of the opinion let history stand and build new and educate.

Can I get you on the record right now that Places and Statues named after founding fathers should never be changed or taken down? That Thomas Jefferson should never be taken down? Thomas Jefferson school or drive should never be changed? That George Washington should never be changed?
 

mackenzie

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I am of the opinion let history stand and build new and educate.

Can I get you on the record right now that Places and Statues named after founding fathers should never be changed or taken down? That Thomas Jefferson should never be taken down? Thomas Jefferson school or drive should never be changed? That George Washington should never be changed?
I am of the opinion that it’s okay to let some history pass and honoring the confederacy is absolutely NOT something the US should be doing at federal installations. You want to create a museum showing the history of the confederacy and move statues there, no problem. History exists to learn from. I’ve been to Stone Mountain a number of times with the kids and i have no issue with a place like that as a state park that explores and displays history.

I am also happy to go 100% on record in saying that I would NEVER support tearing down the statues and monuments of the founding fathers of this country. That said, if a town in BFE Idaho decided to change the name of a street from George Washington Way to Chris Peterson Blvd I can’t say that I’m going to get up in arms and be out in the street protesting it.
 

MrMcGillicutty

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I am of the opinion that it’s okay to let some history pass and honoring the confederacy is absolutely NOT something the US should be doing at federal installations. You want to create a museum showing the history of the confederacy and move statues there, no problem. History exists to learn from. I’ve been to Stone Mountain a number of times with the kids and i have no issue with a place like that as a state park that explores and displays history.

I am also happy to go 100% on record in saying that I would NEVER support tearing down the statues and monuments of the founding fathers of this country. That said, if a town in BFE Idaho decided to change the name of a street from George Washington Way to Chris Peterson Blvd I can’t say that I’m going to get up in arms and be out in the street protesting it.
It has started.

 

orientalthunder

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I lived in Portland for a year, they’re freaks. This is as idiotic as looting and rioting. They’ll fix it and put it someplace else where idiots hopefully won’t destroy it.
“Oh that place is just full of weirdos in some obscure place” is always the response to these things happening to discredit the slippery slope we are on right now.
 

MrMcGillicutty

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I lived in Portland for a year, they’re freaks. This is as idiotic as looting and rioting. They’ll fix it and put it someplace else where idiots hopefully won’t destroy it.
You know that snowball effect and slippery slope thing that normal people are afraid of, and others discard?
 

mackenzie

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You know that snowball effect and slippery slope thing that normal people are afraid of, and others discard?
EDIT - this is my initial reaction to your post and the tweet - And this impacts my life or yours exactly how? I just don't give that much of a crap. People do stuff every day I don't agree with but I'm really not going to lose a ton of sleep over a museum taking down a statue no matter how stupid I think their reasons. It's their statue and their museum, knock your lights out.

EDIT - then I went and looked at the statue and here is my follow up - it is heinous and offensive and should come down. Teddy is sitting on his horse while an African American and Native American walk behind him next to his horse. I don't know what the artist was trying to say, but it looks awful. Fully support the decision to take it down - seems way overdue.
 
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