Atl police chief resigned for the wrong reason

[kenews]

He was not. He was a drunk idiot who tried to run away from the cops like many drunk idiots before him. He definitely deserved to be arrested and pick up some more charges after he resisted. But they already had all his info. If he runs, they even could’ve tracked him down later.

This is what I was talking about. How are we going to handle these things if we keep letting the citizens resist arrest and fight? There has to be some type of legal consequences and rewards that we can do to make it less likely to get in a fight.

I would have let him go, but his actions are just not what a normal person would do. He might have just come from a much more violent incident or heading to one. This will be worse as we go on because the non compliance has become much more acceptable because of the polices recent actions. It will trickle down everywhere and we need to say just do what the officer says.

 

[MattAU05]

You are stating your opinion as fact.

I am basing my opinion on what I saw and saying based on the available information he shouldn’t have been killed. You said what if he had run off and killed someone, I assume to argue the killing was justified. Which is just wild speculation, and doesn’t really add much to the discussion.

 

[vanceme]

This is what I was talking about. How are we going to handle these things if we keep letting the citizens resist arrest and fight? There has to be some type of legal consequences and rewards that we can do to make it less likely to get in a fight.

I would have let him go, but his actions are just not what a normal person would do. He might have just come from a much more violent incident or heading to one. This will be worse as we go on because the non compliance has become much more acceptable because of the polices recent actions. It will trickle down everywhere and we need to say just do what the officer says.

I can confirm that if you don't resist arrest you are way less likely to get shot while being arrested. It also seems that taking the officers weapons and trying to use them in him or her often ends poorly. So yes I agreee a good starting point to reduce cops killing people is to stop trying to kill the cops.

 

[Jay G. Tate]

This is what I was talking about. How are we going to handle these things if we keep letting the citizens resist arrest and fight? There has to be some type of legal consequences and rewards that we can do to make it less likely to get in a fight.

I would have let him go, but his actions are just not what a normal person would do. He might have just come from a much more violent incident or heading to one. This will be worse as we go on because the non compliance has become much more acceptable because of the polices recent actions. It will trickle down everywhere and we need to say just do what the officer says.

Non-compliance that is partially rooted in some really poor decisions from LE. I personally don’t think this is one of them, though I am dismayed that the guy died. It’s fueling the fire.

 

[Jay G. Tate]

I can confirm that if you don't resist arrest you are way less likely to get shot while being arrested. It also seems that taking the officers weapons and trying to use them in him or her often ends poorly. So yes I agreee a good starting point to reduce cops killing people is to stop trying to kill the cops.

This is not going to abate on its own. How can we heal this two-way distrust? That’s the only way it stops.

 

[vanceme]

I am basing my opinion on what I saw and saying based on the available information he shouldn’t have been killed. You said what if he had run off and killed someone, I assume to argue the killing was justified. Which is just wild speculation, and doesn’t really add much to the discussion.

Ok do you admit that these are facts here?

The now dead suspect was:
1. willing to go off physically on some cops
2. Steal their tazer while roughing them up
3. run away while being arrsted thus resisting arrest.
4. Point the tazer at the cops he just stole it from
5. There is evidence that he had broken the law by being drunk while driving a car prior to his attempted arrest.

 

[kenews]

Non-compliance that is partially rooted in some really poor decisions from LE. I personally don’t think this is one of them, though I am dismayed that the guy died. It’s fueling the fire.

Shouldn't have happened. The thing is they were trying to be too nice and he took advantage of it. There was a point when you could have uses a reverse choke hold that would have gotten him under control but they did not choose to use that. They then gave pursuit, which is because they are trained to go after those resist arrest, and it fell apart from there. I worry that the crowd that had gathered to cheer him on might have been why he decided to run. It was going really well for a while.

 

[vanceme]

This is not going to abate on its own. How can we heal this two-way distrust? That’s the only way it stops.

Well I taught both of my boys that if you find yourself being arrsted one day or even being questioned by the police assume they think you are dangerous and do what they say to allow them to do their job. If there are issues we can sort those out after you are not being held by someone that has the ability to shoot you.

Teach that to every human and things will get a lot better. I can confirm at least one of my sons is thankfull I taught him this.

 

[kenews]

I am basing my opinion on what I saw and saying based on the available information he shouldn’t have been killed. You said what if he had run off and killed someone, I assume to argue the killing was justified. Which is just wild speculation, and doesn’t really add much to the discussion.

I am not a fan of the Mayor but she said the correct thing. Legal does not always mean the right thing. It was definitely not the right thing because a man lost his life and it could have been avoided.

Thing is there is a reason that resisting arrest is a very serious charge. They are trained to go after people who resisted arrest and that is about the only thing we can change, but I am not sure we should. It opens the door for just running all the time.

 

[MattAU05]

Ok do you admit that these are facts here?

The now dead suspect was:
1. willing to go off physically on some cops
2. Steal their tazer while roughing them up
3. run away while being arrsted thus resisting arrest.
4. Point the tazer at the cops he just stole it from
5. There is evidence that he had broken the law by being drunk while driving a car prior to his attempted arrest.

And none of those things justifies execution.

I would also dispute #3. I don’t think he roughed them up as much as tussled with them. Though both terms are admittedly subjective. He definitely was able to overpower them and get away. Whatever label we want to put on his actions, they didn’t either legally or morally rise to the level where lethal force was justified. Is this the worst police killing I’ve seen? Far from it. I don’t think the cop who shot him was some horrible racist intent on killing a black man. I do think he used bad judgment, was not justified in killing the guy, and should likely be charged with a crime. Just like me or you would be in the same situation.

This is not going to abate on its own. How can we heal this two-way distrust? That’s the only way it stops.

Good point Jay. There needs to be trust built both ways. As I’ve said before I think de-militarizing would be a big step. You also need more community policing. Heck, my wife suggests that cops should only be permitted to police the communities/cities where they live. That’s a great idea, though I don’t know how practical it is. And I will keep beating the drum that the Drug War is a major factor that needs to be done away with. When mere possession of a substance can land you in prison, every police contact could lead to a felony arrest, and, thus, makes nearly everyone a potential felony suspect. That creates a larger number of tense encounters between civilians and police.

 

[vanceme]

And none of those things justifies execution.

I would also dispute #3. I don’t think he roughed them up as much as tussled with them. Though both terms are admittedly subjective. He definitely was able to overpower them and get away. Whatever label we want to put on his actions, they didn’t either legally or morally rise to the level where lethal force was justified. Is this the worst police killing I’ve seen? Far from it. I don’t think the cop who shot him was some horrible racist intent on killing a black man. I do think he used bad judgment, was not justified in killing the guy, and should likely be charged with a crime. Just like me or you would be in the same situation.




Good point Jay. There needs to be trust built both ways. As I’ve said before I think de-militarizing would be a big step. You also need more community policing. Heck, my wife suggests that cops should only be permitted to police the communities/cities where they live. That’s a great idea, though I don’t know how practical it is. And I will keep beating the drum that the Drug War is a major factor that needs to be done away with. When mere possession of a substance can land you in prison, every police contact could lead to a felony arrest, and, thus, makes nearly everyone a potential felony suspect. That creates a larger number of tense encounters between civilians and police.

Well, I guess we will see how this plays out in court as I think we have to agree to disagree.

My guess is he wins a lawsuit against the city for wrongful termination. He didnt commit a crime so if charged with one he is ruled innocent by a jury.

 

[vanceme]

And none of those things justifies execution.

I would also dispute #3. I don’t think he roughed them up as much as tussled with them. Though both terms are admittedly subjective. He definitely was able to overpower them and get away. Whatever label we want to put on his actions, they didn’t either legally or morally rise to the level where lethal force was justified. Is this the worst police killing I’ve seen? Far from it. I don’t think the cop who shot him was some horrible racist intent on killing a black man. I do think he used bad judgment, was not justified in killing the guy, and should likely be charged with a crime. Just like me or you would be in the same situation.




Good point Jay. There needs to be trust built both ways. As I’ve said before I think de-militarizing would be a big step. You also need more community policing. Heck, my wife suggests that cops should only be permitted to police the communities/cities where they live. That’s a great idea, though I don’t know how practical it is. And I will keep beating the drum that the Drug War is a major factor that needs to be done away with. When mere possession of a substance can land you in prison, every police contact could lead to a felony arrest, and, thus, makes nearly everyone a potential felony suspect. That creates a larger number of tense encounters between civilians and police.

This is quote from the DA in Atlanta. Sounds like he believes the officer was within his legal right if he felt threatened but don't worry because he also said he planned to charge him anyway. I mean who cares about actual laws anymore.

Howard said. "If that shot was fired for some reason other than to save that officer's life or to prevent injury to him or others, then that shooting is not justified under the law."

 

[MattAU05]

This is quote from the DA in Atlanta. Sounds like he believes the officer was within his legal right if he felt threatened but don't worry because he also said he planned to charge him anyway. I mean who cares about actual laws anymore.

Howard said. "If that shot was fired for some reason other than to save that officer's life or to prevent injury to him or others, then that shooting is not justified under the law."

The DA correctly stated the law which comes from a SCOTUS case in the 80s. Tennessee v. Garner. Are you saying you agree with him or disagree?

 

[vanceme]

The DA correctly stated the law which comes from a SCOTUS case in the 80s. Tennessee v. Garner. Are you saying you agree with him or disagree?

I agree, if the cop just killed him then its murder, like Floyd. If the cop says he felt threatened, which his body cam footage already shows, then he should not be charged. However , the DA already said he would charge him anyway.

 

[Jay G. Tate]

Well I taught both of my boys that if you find yourself being arrsted one day or even being questioned by the police assume they think you are dangerous and do what they say to allow them to do their job. If there are issues we can sort those out after you are not being held by someone that has the ability to shoot you.

Teach that to every human and things will get a lot better. I can confirm at least one of my sons is thankfull I taught him this.

That’s good parenting IMO, but you teach that assuming LE is going to treat you fairly. Will LE treat you fairly? That’s for each person to decide.

 

[MattAU05]

I agree, if the cop just killed him then its murder, like Floyd. If the cop says he felt threatened, which his body cam footage already shows, then he should not be charged. However , the DA already said he would charge him anyway.

The standard is just to feel threatened, it is to feel threatened (or feel that someone else is threatened) with serious bodily injury or death. A drunk guy fleeing and shooting the taser doesn’t meet that. Wasn’t he actually shot after he fired the taser and missed? I think it is close, but I don’t think either you or I would have any hope or avoiding prosecution in a similar situation.

 

[Jay G. Tate]

BTW, this is an excellent Bunker thread. I am learning stuff. Nobody is acting a fool. @vanceme @MattAU05 @kenews

 

[vanceme]

That’s good parenting IMO, but you teach that assuming LE is going to treat you fairly. Will LE treat you fairly? That’s for each person to decide.

To be fair I assume they might not treat them fairly. I try to put myself in the cops position. He or she sees bad people all the time so in order not get killed they need to error in the side of caution. I taught my boys how to do their part to make the system work. So you asked what could be done and I truly believe that if all humans were taught that we would all be better off.

 

[MattAU05]

That’s good parenting IMO, but you teach that assuming LE is going to treat you fairly. Will LE treat you fairly? That’s for each person to decide.

I feel safe. I’m white, clean cut and usually dressed nicely. My stepson is brown (my wife is half-Hispanic—her grandmother has dual Mexican-US citizenship—and he got a lot of that). He also looks older than he is. He is only 14 now, but he could pass for 18+. I don’t feel as confident that he will get the same deference I do. He knows to call me if he is ever in a car that is pulled over and keep me on speaker. That’s a safety think we’ve taught him. He is actually really personable and adults tend to love him when they talk to him (my wife and I agree he’s a little annoying, but he’s 14, so that’s kind of standard), so I bet he will always be ok. He can talk people into calming down. But what if he doesn’t and his nerves cause him to flash anger? It worries me.

 

[vanceme]

BTW, this is an excellent Bunker thread. I am learning stuff. Nobody is acting a fool. @vanceme @MattAU05 @kenews

Thanks and I agree I was just telling my wife I enjoyed learning other peoples thoughts on this one.

 

[vanceme]

The standard is just to feel threatened, it is to feel threatened (or feel that someone else is threatened) with serious bodily injury or death. A drunk guy fleeing and shooting the taser doesn’t meet that. Wasn’t he actually shot after he fired the taser and missed? I think it is close, but I don’t think either you or I would have any hope or avoiding prosecution in a similar situation.

I have a carry permit. If someone tries to shoot me with a tazer it is legal for me to kill them. So no I wouldn't or I should say shouldn't be prosecuted. I have a legal right to defend myself.

 

[vanceme]

I feel safe. I’m white, clean cut and usually dressed nicely. My stepson is brown (my wife is half-Hispanic—her grandmother has dual Mexican-US citizenship—and he got a lot of that). He also looks older than he is. He is only 14 now, but he could pass for 18+. I don’t feel as confident that he will get the same deference I do. He knows to call me if he is ever in a car that is pulled over and keep me on speaker. That’s a safety think we’ve taught him. He is actually really personable and adults tend to love him when they talk to him (my wife and I agree he’s a little annoying, but he’s 14, so that’s kind of standard), so I bet he will always be ok. He can talk people into calming down. But what if he doesn’t and his nerves cause him to flash anger? It worries me.

I worry about this as well and my kids are white. We can only hope they do what we taught them in these situations.

 

[MattAU05]

I have a carry permit. If someone tries to shoot me with a tazer it is legal for me to kill them. So no I wouldn't or I should say shouldn't be prosecuted. I have a legal right to defend myself.

It really all comes down to self-defense. And I think that’s what this situation comes down to also. A few things:

1) You have to use force proportional to the force being used against you. That doesn’t mean the same weapon. For example if someone is beating you senseless with their hands and you shoot them you’re ok. But if they shoot you with a sling shot or throw some rocks at you, you wouldn’t. (That would change if they were beating you with a large stone, obviously.)

2) Imminent danger. Are you in it? Someone coming at you with a taser or other less-than-deadly weapon may indeed mean you’re in imminent danger. But if they just have a taser but are running away, or have already discharged it and can’t again (not sure how all tasers or stun gun work, so please educate me if need be), it is a little different.

3) Are they fleeing? Generally, most places don’t require that you retreat. The initial aggressor generally carries the burden of “starting it.” But if they retreat, can you chase? On your own property, you can in many places (the “castle doctrine” is sometimes what it is called).

I really want to see a better view of the last 5-10 seconds. Was the guy running toward another officer or civilian? Did he competent turn and then begin going back at the cops? Or did he half turn and fire the taser and miss? The more I think about it the more I believe it will be very difficult to find the officer gusty beyond a reasonable doubt largely because the guy had a taser and (it seems) actually turned and intended to fire it. So much if it when it comes to self-defense goes to mindset and legitimate fear for life or serious injury.

But, I still think the officer’s actions were not an appropriate use of force under Tennessee v. Garner. So his firing was appropriate, and I think the man’s family likely has a good Civil Rights case against the department. That Tenn v. Garner case was not a criminal case, it was a civil case. Which I think is pretty important to remember.

Oh, and I don’t think the officers were motivated by race here. I think race played very little roll. This was more situational than anything.

 

[vanceme]

It really all comes down to self-defense. And I think that’s what this situation comes down to also. A few things:

1) You have to use force proportional to the force being used against you. That doesn’t mean the same weapon. For example if someone is beating you senseless with their hands and you shoot them you’re ok. But if they shoot you with a sling shot or throw some rocks at you, you wouldn’t. (That would change if they were beating you with a large stone, obviously.)

2) Imminent danger. Are you in it? Someone coming at you with a taser or other less-than-deadly weapon may indeed mean you’re in imminent danger. But if they just have a taser but are running away, or have already discharged it and can’t again (not sure how all tasers or stun gun work, so please educate me if need be), it is a little different.

3) Are they fleeing? Generally, most places don’t require that you retreat. The initial aggressor generally carries the burden of “starting it.” But if they retreat, can you chase? On your own property, you can in many places (the “castle doctrine” is sometimes what it is called).

I really want to see a better view of the last 5-10 seconds. Was the guy running toward another officer or civilian? Did he competent turn and then begin going back at the cops? Or did he half turn and fire the taser and miss? The more I think about it the more I believe it will be very difficult to find the officer gusty beyond a reasonable doubt largely because the guy had a taser and (it seems) actually turned and intended to fire it. So much if it when it comes to self-defense goes to mindset and legitimate fear for life or serious injury.

But, I still think the officer’s actions were not an appropriate use of force under Tennessee v. Garner. So his firing was appropriate, and I think the man’s family likely has a good Civil Rights case against the department. That Tenn v. Garner case was not a criminal case, it was a civil case. Which I think is pretty important to remember.

Oh, and I don’t think the officers were motivated by race here. I think race played very little roll. This was more situational than anything.

I have seen a good discussion on the tazer question amongst my friends that are cops and they all agreed that he may or may not have had a charge left after the now dead man took it off the officer. I am not informed enough to have any idea.

For me personally if we just had a fight that you started it might end poorly for you if I let you run away and then you shoot anything at me. I will assume you are trying to shoot me.

Sorry to be clear this is an example for discussion and is in no way meant to infer me and you.

Also I wouldn't I shoot a person running away but I know for sure I would have my weapon out and pointed at you. So if you pull a weapon it is over. I won't take that chance you shoot poorly.

 

[MattAU05]

I have seen a good discussion on the tazer question amongst my friends that are cops and they all agreed that he may or may not have had a charge left after the now dead man took it off the officer. I am not informed enough to have any idea.

For me personally if we just had a fight that you started it might end poorly for you if I let you run away and then you shoot anything at me. I will assume you are trying to shoot me.

Sorry to be clear this is an example for discussion and is in no way meant to infer me and you.

Also I wouldn't I shoot a person running away but I know for sure I would have my weapon out and pointed at you. So if you pull a weapon it is over. I won't take that chance you shoot poorly.

I figured you weren’t talking about shooting me. I’m not exactly a fighter anyway. Ha!

 

[kenews]

And none of those things justifies execution.

I would also dispute #3. I don’t think he roughed them up as much as tussled with them. Though both terms are admittedly subjective. He definitely was able to overpower them and get away. Whatever label we want to put on his actions, they didn’t either legally or morally rise to the level where lethal force was justified. Is this the worst police killing I’ve seen? Far from it. I don’t think the cop who shot him was some horrible racist intent on killing a black man. I do think he used bad judgment, was not justified in killing the guy, and should likely be charged with a crime. Just like me or you would be in the same situation.




Good point Jay. There needs to be trust built both ways. As I’ve said before I think de-militarizing would be a big step. You also need more community policing. Heck, my wife suggests that cops should only be permitted to police the communities/cities where they live. That’s a great idea, though I don’t know how practical it is. And I will keep beating the drum that the Drug War is a major factor that needs to be done away with. When mere possession of a substance can land you in prison, every police contact could lead to a felony arrest, and, thus, makes nearly everyone a potential felony suspect. That creates a larger number of tense encounters between civilians and police.

We have always agreed on the drug war. Stupid and a waste of time. Very important in cleaning up our cities when they were instituted but that was thirty years ago.

This is one of the demands that BLM had that was decent along with a couple of others but they all had sticky points. The key is to have the communities all be like the ones we live in. I am definitely not rich but my neighbors are all good people and we have a great relationship with the police. Some of the poor neighborhoods do not have that.

Not sure what to do but it is just not worth having someone die over little things.

 

[kenews]

BTW, this is an excellent Bunker thread. I am learning stuff. Nobody is acting a fool. @vanceme @MattAU05 @kenews

In my case it is not an act. Matt is the smart one in the bunch because he has some insight into laws we just didn't deal with in the military or schools.

 

[overman185]

If the burglar runs out your front door and turns to shoot you with a taser from a few feet away you can shoot them.

This is in no why justification of what the officer in ATL did...at a time when this is such a sensitive issue that shouldn’t happen. In hindsight letting the dude run away and catching him later would have been smarter. But, officers are trained to shoot someone who has been physically violent and then points a weapon at him. In this case that training took over.

This.

 

[kenews]

I have seen a good discussion on the tazer question amongst my friends that are cops and they all agreed that he may or may not have had a charge left after the now dead man took it off the officer. I am not informed enough to have any idea.

For me personally if we just had a fight that you started it might end poorly for you if I let you run away and then you shoot anything at me. I will assume you are trying to shoot me.

Sorry to be clear this is an example for discussion and is in no way meant to infer me and you.

Also I wouldn't I shoot a person running away but I know for sure I would have my weapon out and pointed at you. So if you pull a weapon it is over. I won't take that chance you shoot poorly.

We now know the part of the story our media is not telling that might be the one connecting issue in all of these. This arrest was sending him back to prison. This seems to be the case every time there is a big fight and resisting arrest. There has to be some kind of way that we can convince them that the petty crimes is not getting them back in jail or going to jail. The fear is not of the officers, it is of going back to jail.

 

[vanceme]

We now know the part of the story our media is not telling that might be the one connecting issue in all of these. This arrest was sending him back to prison. This seems to be the case every time there is a big fight and resisting arrest. There has to be some kind of way that we can convince them that the petty crimes is not getting them back in jail or going to jail. The fear is not of the officers, it is of going back to jail.

I have seen some pretty weird stories about the man coming out but I haven't seen one showing any past criminal history. Where are you seeing that?

 

[kenews]

I have seen some pretty weird stories about the man coming out but I haven't seen one showing any past criminal history. Where are you seeing that?

There are a few things in his past that has gotten him in trouble. It was the same for Floyd which might be why he had the panic attack getting in the car.

The problem with our prisons is they are not doing any good at all except for removing violent criminals and possibly making more. There has to be an alternative to get these guys who are struggling in a true rehab program that gets him going when they get out. Sticking people in prison is just a horrible thing and should only be used as a last resort.

 

[wareagleone]

Not sure it’s justified. Why? If a burglar flees my home and I shoot him in the street, I’m probably getting charged with something bad. Is that right? (I honestly don’t know.)

If while running out of your house with you chasing him. He turn and aims a weapon at you and you shoot him. IMO you are justified. While running from the policeman he turned and aimed the taser he had taken from the officer in the fight to get away. (tasers have been ruled as a lethal weapon all over the country as people die while being tased several times a year)

 

[Jay G. Tate]

If while running out of your house with you chasing him. He turn and aims a weapon at you and you shoot him. IMO you are justified. While running from the policeman he turned and aimed the taser he had taken from the officer in the fight to get away. (tasers have been ruled as a lethal weapon all over the country as people die while being tased several times a year)

Preferably, the suspect is neutralized without sustaining a fatal injury. However, I agree that Brooks made a series of bad decisions here.

 

[wareagleone]

Preferably, the suspect is neutralized without sustaining a fatal injury. However, I agree that Brooks made a series of bad decisions here.

If a person raises a weapon and aims it at me with the intent to fire it. And I have a weapon on my person, one of us is going to get shot. I don't want to shot anyone, don't want to harm anyone, etc. And feel bad for anyone put in that situation. But when a person aims a weapon at anyone he or she is now open to be shot. This man did that and he died. The officer should not be second guessed IMO. GA's stand your ground law says if you feel you life or the life of another in danger you can use deadly force. When he raise that taser weapon in my mind it was justified. The officer should not lose right because he is an officer. That is my opinion. And if I was on his jury he would be going home free or he would be getting tried again.